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UTRocketMan
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Obviously believing in religion is not the same thing as a neurological disorder, as others have probably pointed out. However, virtually none of the intelligent people I know have strong religious beliefs, many of them will claim to be part of a particular religion, but that's usually because of their upbringing, a desire to not disappoint parents, and the fear of discrimination that atheists face. Thus they stay in the closet.

I wonder if they would agree with your statements about them.

If you are referring to students at anything but a seminary school or a school in the deeeep south, I doubt anyone is getting that much flak for being an atheist. At most, maybe the occasional "Hey Jesus loves you".

Your points on upbringing and disappointed for parents as a pressure to maintain a religion is spot on. I would still maintain though at least in my small experience and group of friends, once a student reaches college or someone is out of their parents house, the parental factors are no longer that important. If these people only had religious beliefs because of parental pressure, they would simply tell their parents one thing, and tell everyone else another. Not continue to completely live out something they didn't believe, but only maintain the rouse around their parents (barring upbringing factors).

As for upbringing, well, yeah, if they were always raised on something and shielded from other influences, they're not going to have developed reasons for why they follow the beliefs they do. Like those Westboro Baptist people. Perhaps they have neurological conditions from generations of "light" incest?
Old 07-11-2009, 09:06 PM UTRocketMan is offline  
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Renork
 
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Originally Posted by HeLLFiRe View Post
Neurological disorders are disorders that can affect the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord), the peripheral nervous system, or the autonomic nervous system.


So no. Believing in God cannot be an Neurological disorder. You could however say that it is brainwashing.
Bill Maher is an elitist egotistical fuck who believes the whole world should follow his word to the letter and only he can be right.

Since you seem to know a bit about this stuff, what would you say to classifying a predisposition to magical thinking as a pseudopathology("A currently dysfunctional expression of an evolutionarily adaptive emotional response is sometimes referred to as a pseudopathology" p157 Evolutionary Psychology - Rossano)?

Or possibly religious belief should fall under one of the "delusional disorder" classifications? Surely you would concede that religious beliefs are strikingly similar to many of the indicators. Even if the overall diagnosis might not be a perfect fit.

1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche.
9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.
(Munro, Alistair (1999). Delusional disorder: paranoia and related illnesses)

And from the DSM.
"An individual's cultural and religious background must be taken into account in evaluating the possible presence of Delusional Disorder."

Does the fact that it is a religious belief magically make it not delusional?

Not in my opinion. It is very likely that the psychiatric establishment chooses to add little tidbits like this due to the uproar the majority of the population would cause if they understood that their delusions are really not any different than the delusions of the people we generally refer to as crazy. There are just enough of them experiencing a similar delusion that its not a group worth pissing off.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:18 PM Renork is offline  
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bingstudent
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Originally Posted by UTRocketMan View Post
I wonder if they would agree with your statements about them.

I'm only referring to those I've had conversations about faith / god / religion with. I know many that feign their religious belief publicly or in front of family, but privately think that it's quite absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UTRocketMan View Post
If you are referring to students at anything but a seminary school or a school in the deeeep south, I doubt anyone is getting that much flak for being an atheist. At most, maybe the occasional "Hey Jesus loves you".

I don't know about receiving flak, face to face, but I think you underestimate the subconscious barrier many people have to accepting / trusting atheists.
Old 07-12-2009, 02:25 PM bingstudent is offline  
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I

I don't know about receiving flak, face to face, but I think you underestimate the subconscious barrier many people have to accepting / trusting atheists.


This is true,

http://www.asanet.org/cs/root/topnav...are_distrusted

There are significant social and professional risks associated with being openly atheist.
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Old 07-12-2009, 02:49 PM Renork is offline  
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Please cite

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=1550
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Old 07-12-2009, 04:50 PM :ninja: is offline  
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I'm for freedom of AND from religion and all, but some of these motherfuckers are scary. Like these hillbillies:

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
Old 07-12-2009, 06:44 PM topcat989 is offline  
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GOD HATES AMERICA, GOD HATES FAGS

Now I personally have never seen this on the side of a bus.
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Old 07-13-2009, 07:28 PM TommyTheCat is offline  
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Originally Posted by Renork View Post
Since you seem to know a bit about this stuff, what would you say to classifying a predisposition to magical thinking as a pseudopathology("A currently dysfunctional expression of an evolutionarily adaptive emotional response is sometimes referred to as a pseudopathology" p157 Evolutionary Psychology - Rossano)?

Or possibly religious belief should fall under one of the "delusional disorder" classifications? Surely you would concede that religious beliefs are strikingly similar to many of the indicators. Even if the overall diagnosis might not be a perfect fit.

1. The patient expresses an idea or belief with unusual persistence or force.
2. That idea appears to exert an undue influence on his or her life, and the way of life is often altered to an inexplicable extent.
3. Despite his/her profound conviction, there is often a quality of secretiveness or suspicion when the patient is questioned about it.
4. The individual tends to be humorless and oversensitive, especially about the belief.
5. There is a quality of centrality: no matter how unlikely it is that these strange things are happening to him, the patient accepts them relatively unquestioningly.
6. An attempt to contradict the belief is likely to arouse an inappropriately strong emotional reaction, often with irritability and hostility.
7. The belief is, at the least, unlikely.
8. The patient is emotionally over-invested in the idea and it overwhelms other elements of his psyche.
9. The delusion, if acted out, often leads to behaviors which are abnormal and/or out of character, although perhaps understandable in the light of the delusional beliefs.
10. Individuals who know the patient will observe that his belief and behavior are uncharacteristic and alien.
(Munro, Alistair (1999). Delusional disorder: paranoia and related illnesses)

And from the DSM.
"An individual's cultural and religious background must be taken into account in evaluating the possible presence of Delusional Disorder."

Does the fact that it is a religious belief magically make it not delusional?

Not in my opinion. It is very likely that the psychiatric establishment chooses to add little tidbits like this due to the uproar the majority of the population would cause if they understood that their delusions are really not any different than the delusions of the people we generally refer to as crazy. There are just enough of them experiencing a similar delusion that its not a group worth pissing off.

I agree. There are plenty of religious people that could be considered crazy as hell, delusional, and suffering from a host of other problems. Simply having faith in something extraordinary isn't enough for them to collect disability for the rest of their lives. Throughout our human history, religion has changed to varying degrees significantly multiple times. It has changed based on our understanding of everything in our lives, usually as the result of science in the past 2000 years and most dramatically in the last 600 years. People that ridicule religion because of science are just as bad as the reverse was for Galileo Galilei.
Old 07-13-2009, 08:56 PM HeLLFiRe is offline  
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Originally Posted by HeLLFiRe View Post
People that ridicule religion because of science are just as bad as the reverse was for Galileo Galilei.
Is there a Secular Inquisition sentencing religious folks to imprisonment, requiring they publicly denounce their observations, and banning their writings? Has it taken them 350 years (that's 1992, kids) to pull their head out of their ass?

Then no, they aren't "just as bad," you fucking moron.
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Old 07-13-2009, 09:14 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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HeLLFiRe
 
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
Is there a Secular Inquisition sentencing religious folks to imprisonment, requiring they publicly denounce their observations, and banning their writings? Has it taken them 350 years (that's 1992, kids) to pull their head out of their ass?

Then no, they aren't "just as bad," you fucking moron.

Probably only because we have fucking laws against it, you fucking moron. The whole point of this thread was considering whether religious peoples faith should be considered a disorder which is in itself a self-righteous idea not based on science, but on emotion.

Last edited by HeLLFiRe; 07-13-2009 at 10:16 PM..
Old 07-13-2009, 10:10 PM HeLLFiRe is offline  
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MrBojangels
 
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I'd say most people are quite private about their religion so why do you give a shit?

Because they're fucking stupid and they can vote
Old 07-13-2009, 11:21 PM MrBojangels is offline  
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CommiePunk
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Because they're fucking stupid and they can vote

uh oh, you better make sure people who think otherwise than you can't vote!
Old 07-14-2009, 03:03 AM CommiePunk is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Because they're fucking stupid and they can vote

My bad. I guess I should have voted for McCain/Palin since my religious mind obviously chose wrong and voted for Obama instead.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:38 AM Coqui is offline  
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
Is there a Secular Inquisition sentencing religious folks to imprisonment, requiring they publicly denounce their observations, and banning their writings? Has it taken them 350 years (that's 1992, kids) to pull their head out of their ass?

Then no, they aren't "just as bad," you fucking moron.

Really? That's the road you want to go down?

Last religious outbreak regarding that done by Christians? Ended in 1834. I don't know what you're talking about that occurred in 1992

Last atheist lead attack on a religion? Ended in 1945

Seriously, you guys take the Crusades and the Inquisition and act like it's still happening.

Hitler denounced God for Germany. He said the only god was Germany. Other writings show he was not religious but at the most a deist. So either atheist/agnostic/or simply deist, that's proof right there that religions are not the only ones that caused issues.
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Old 07-14-2009, 03:46 AM Coqui is offline  
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loner
 
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you don't even know what godwin's law is, you lose


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Did you even read your own article? You made a comparison between the "niceness" of the Salvation Army and the "niceness" of Hitler (appearing to suggest some sort of self-serving motive, perhaps, but an utter failure in that regard).

From your article:

Quote:
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is a humorous observation coined by Mike Godwin in 1990, and which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
The probability of a comparison involving Hitler, in this case, has reached 1.

Further:

Quote:
there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.
Therefore, "you lost" is appropriate.

Now that YOU know what Godwin's law is, you may now return to your regularly scheduled thread in progress.
Old 07-14-2009, 05:09 AM loner is offline  
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