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:ninja:
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
There's plenty of blame to place on the insurance companies, but don't fixate on them if you want to get to a real solution. The care providers are just as much at fault, if not more so. They don't draw emotional ire the same way, since they aren't the ones denying you care, but their efforts at ratcheting up costs are what's leading the insurance companies to act so badly.

In this case Kaiser is a care provider. They have their own hospitals. They even put their doctors on salary to remove the incentive to perform unneeded surgeries and operations. Note that "unneeded" is defined by Kaiser, not the patient or doctor.


What is it... 20% of the population takes up 80% of healthcare costs? Insurance companies and care providers know this, so they focus on that 20% and use a variety of techniques to reduce costs: Denying care, purging (raising premiums so high in hopes the patient will discontinue coverage), rescinding coverage, denying coverage to prospective patients based on age, weight, preexisting conditions, etc... Then they just routinely jack premiums higher and higher. It's fairly inelastic until patients foreclose their homes and go bankrupt.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:23 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by Vannaroth View Post
You are getting shit in return because despite the fact that you pay more taxes than anyone else, and pay vastly more out of pocket than anyone else, you're still left with millions of people without coverage and a system that frankly isn't even all that fucking good

I'm glad you're happy and everything but it doesn't change the fact that Americans are getting royally shafted on health coverage.

Shhhh, the health insurance industry might hear your socialist ramblings!!!
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:53 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Based on the following, you can see the obvious superiority of the current US health care system:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...h_care_systems

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In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was US$6,714; in Canada, US$3,678.[5] The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%.[5] In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private).
Adopting any form of government health care like the Canadians did is clearly going to mean you get less from your money, and will cost you in the long run. The American health care system is the envy of the civilized world, with it's low costs, easy access at reasonable prices to both citizens and the government, and unmatched efficiency in everything.

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:57 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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I still want to know why the fuck the OP is so concerned about the insurance companies that have fucked him all his life if it means he'll get cheaper health care from the government instead.

I still want to know what he's paying per year in health insurance costs, so I can compare it to my not-really-that-much-higher Canadian taxes.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:00 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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I still want to know why the fuck the OP is so concerned about the insurance companies that have fucked him all his life if it means he'll get cheaper health care from the government instead.

I still want to know what he's paying per year in health insurance costs, so I can compare it to my not-really-that-much-higher Canadian taxes.

He's probably never been seriously ill, never seen anyone close to him get seriously ill, and thus can afford to stand on free-market "principles" that clearly aren't working in this industry.
Old 08-31-2009, 04:48 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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In this case Kaiser is a care provider. They have their own hospitals. They even put their doctors on salary to remove the incentive to perform unneeded surgeries and operations. Note that "unneeded" is defined by Kaiser, not the patient or doctor.


What is it... 20% of the population takes up 80% of healthcare costs? Insurance companies and care providers know this, so they focus on that 20% and use a variety of techniques to reduce costs: Denying care, purging (raising premiums so high in hopes the patient will discontinue coverage), rescinding coverage, denying coverage to prospective patients based on age, weight, preexisting conditions, etc... Then they just routinely jack premiums higher and higher. It's fairly inelastic until patients foreclose their homes and go bankrupt.

Oh believe me, I know. I'm one of those people with a pre-existing condition (diabetes). Fortunately the American Diabetes Association has been pretty good with lobbying for protection, but it's still a battle with the insurance companies on a regular basis.

I don't excuse the insurance companies for trying to fuck people over, but they're not the sole cause of the problem here.
Old 08-31-2009, 04:49 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Health Insurance business model:
You pay me money every month. Twice a year, your monthly payment will increase substantially for no reason other than I want more money. Then when you actually need to use your health insurance to get health care, I'll either drop your policy or tell you that I won't pay for it. This saves me money. Your money... that you gave to me to give to your doctor. Yeah... I'm not doing that. I'm going to keep a little. Then give some to the board members. Then a little bit to the investors. Oh, I need to spend some of your money on TV commercials so I can get more people to give me their money. I need to give some to lobbyists and politicians to make sure that I can get tax cuts and prevent regulations so I keep even more of your money. I make billions of dollars, and you don't get health care.


National health business model:
I tax you. You go to the doctor, and I pay the doctor. I make no money, and you get health care.




Trachei, you're really wondering why they can't compete? Come on.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:00 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Oh believe me, I know. I'm one of those people with a pre-existing condition (diabetes). Fortunately the American Diabetes Association has been pretty good with lobbying for protection, but it's still a battle with the insurance companies on a regular basis.

I don't excuse the insurance companies for trying to fuck people over, but they're not the sole cause of the problem here.

When you say that care providers are part of the problem as well, I get very interested in hearing what you have to say. Unfortunately, you keep alluding to it but won't go into detail.

Would you mind explaining a little? Thanks
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:01 PM :ninja: is offline  
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http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci...5/daily36.html

Odd how a "non-profit" organization manages to bring in 2.5 billion dollars in profit in nine months, giving credit to "ongoing efforts to address health-care delivery costs and administrative efficiencies" which sounds a lot like denying care. Which makes perfect sense, because denying care to increase profits was Edgar Kaiser's idea.


So, what's so laughable about $2.5 billion again?

so what you're saying is that you can't find any actual data supporting the claim that corporate greed is to blame for any of this, so you decided to link to a random article and say that the 2.5 billion that the nonprofit organization cam up with MUST be from denying claims. Strangely, I don't see anything saying that anywhere in that article.

Old 08-31-2009, 05:17 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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:ninja:
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
so what you're saying is that you can't find any actual data supporting the claim that corporate greed is to blame for any of this, so you decided to link to a random article and say that the 2.5 billion that the nonprofit organization cam up with MUST be from denying claims. Strangely, I don't see anything saying that anywhere in that article.


You asked for profits. I showed them to you.

Are you like 13 years old or something? You're pretty fucking stupid, dude.


How is it that an insurance company can double its profits without getting more customers?

So you have a "non-profit" health insurance company, which should be paying for health care for its millions of customers, instead winding up with 2.5 BILLION DOLLARS in extra money that it's *not* spending on health care. Meanwhile they keep raising their premiums. Good to know that you think this is completely moral and ethical behaviour.

Please note that "non-profit" translates into "enormous tax cuts via the federal government"
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:36 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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When you say that care providers are part of the problem as well, I get very interested in hearing what you have to say. Unfortunately, you keep alluding to it but won't go into detail.

Would you mind explaining a little? Thanks

Sorry, all the details have been in other threads.

Basically: Insurance providers aren't escalating costs just because they want to make HUGE PROFITS. They're escalating costs because providers are charging more, and because providers are doing more and more procedures every year. There are a lot of reasons behind all of it, some of it is simply that we can treat more diseases and it's expensive to do so. But also, there's a big conflict between profit-motive (esp. in publicly traded companies that need growth every year) and actually making people better. Lots of doctors are doing procedures that are only marginally beneficial, running lots of expensive imaging tests, convincing people to get surgery on things that really don't need operations. It all adds up to a hugely expensive system, nobody making any bigger profits, and little improvement in health outcomes. Most of it is "medically necessary" and thus ethical, but the model is fucked up. Paying per procedure instead of for resolving the issue encourages this behavior.

Part of the problem is that consumers don't see the costs for anything. They don't know how much they're paying for health insurance, and they have no idea how much any of their procedures cost. You go to a doctor, they tell you you need a CT scan because you had a funny migraine, you listen to them and get it done. It doesn't matter that it costs $3000 and there was only a 0.01% chance of anything being wrong, you aren't paying anything anyway.

A good article (long)
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urrentPage=all
Old 08-31-2009, 06:59 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
You asked for profits. I showed them to you.

Are you like 13 years old or something? You're pretty fucking stupid, dude.


How is it that an insurance company can double its profits without getting more customers?

So you have a "non-profit" health insurance company, which should be paying for health care for its millions of customers, instead winding up with 2.5 BILLION DOLLARS in extra money that it's *not* spending on health care. Meanwhile they keep raising their premiums. Good to know that you think this is completely moral and ethical behaviour.

Please note that "non-profit" translates into "enormous tax cuts via the federal government"

Actually, I asked you to show me some data proving that the skyrocketing medical costs are because of corporate greed (which is what you've claimed numerous times). You didn't. You showed that a non-profit company made a profit (which most do, actually, you should read more on this). Try again.
Old 08-31-2009, 08:10 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Actually, I asked you to show me some data proving that the skyrocketing medical costs are because of corporate greed (which is what you've claimed numerous times).
Really?
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Can you show how much of a MEGA PROFIT () these companies are making?

In the immortal words of Arthur Pendragon, put down the crackpipe.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:06 PM :ninja: is offline  
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DUR DUR
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Last edited by :ninja:; 08-31-2009 at 09:22 PM..
Old 08-31-2009, 09:12 PM :ninja: is offline  
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http://ww2.startribune.com/projects/...venueView.html

Just look at all the money to be made in the healthcare / health insurance industry. Wowee Kazowee, 8 Billion buckaroos is a lot of money for a nonprofit company to be making. It's sure is a good feeling to know that millions of Americans can't get health care but these companies can rake in billions of dollars of profits! GO AMERICA!

That's revenue, not profit.
Old 08-31-2009, 09:14 PM Gibonius is offline  
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