Shotgun buying descicions: Pumps vs Autoloaders

[Syk0tiK]

Just an informative post on shotguns for someone who may be interested in a new purchase. I have a lot of experience with both pumps and autoloaders.

I will compare the pro's and cons of each, but I will not state which platform is best because that is semi-subjective.

Pump Pro's:
+ Mechanical Reliability: In general, pump shotguns are more reliable than their gas operated counterparts. (This is not saying autoloaders are not reliable)
+ Can cycle all types of shells including less-than-lethal rounds.
+ Cheaper: You can get quality pumps for less than $200 almost everywhere.
+ Faster clearing of a stoppage: Most stoppages in a pump can be easily resolved by cycling the action.

Pump Con's:
- Operator Reliability: The chance of the operator short stroking in a stressful situation is FAR more likely to happen than a stoppage in an autoloader. (In the Remmington 870's case, short stroking can cause a catastrophic stoppage requiring tools to resolve)
- Higher Recoil: Autoloaders have less recoil, explained more later.
- Slower Follow up shots: Due to the manual operation of the action and the higher recoil, follow up shots are inevitably slower.
- Slower combat reloading: Will explain more in the autoloader section.
- No 1-handed operation: If an arm/hand is injured it is VERY hard to operate the weapon.

Autoloader Pro's:
+ Operator Reliability: Due to no manual cycling of the action, it is impossible for the user to short stroke the weapon. Operator error is FAR more likely to happen in a pump shotgun than a stoppage in an autoloader.
+ Lower recoil: The action of the autoloader reduces recoil.
+ Faster action: The autoloader can eject and cycle a new round faster than humanly possible with a pump.
+ Faster follow up shots: Due to a Faster action and Lower recoil, follow up shots can be performed quicker.
+ Faster combat reloading: In most autoloaders, the bolt will lock back to the rear after the last round is fired, the operator can immediately sense this and load another round. On a pump shotgun, there is no way for the operator to tell when the last round is fired except to pull the trigger or manually check the chamber.
+ Ability to operate with 1-hand: You can effectively operate the weapon with a single hand/arm.

Autoloader Con's:
- Mechanical Reliability: Autoloaders have more moving parts and rely on the gasses of the round to cycle the action. With more moving parts inherently comes less reliability as does relying on the gases of a round to cycle the action. A low powered/defective round will not supply enough gas pressure to fully cycle the action resulting in operator intervention. This is not to say autoloaders are not reliable, they just are not AS reliable as a pump.
- Will not auto-cycle less-than-lethal rounds: You can still manually cycle the action, so they can still be shot, just not automatically.\
- Slower clearing of stoppage: Clearing a stoppage on an autoloader is simple, but still takes longer than a pump.
- Longer break in period: With most autoloaders, you need to thoroughly clean and lube them before they will reliably cycle birdshot. Sometimes you will also need to shoot some full powered slug's or buckshot before the action is "broken in" enough to shoot birdshot.
- More expensive: Its a fact that autoloaders are more expensive, expect to spend at least $450 minimum for one.

I have Highlighted what I feel are the most important parts of the comparison and what I feel should make up most of your decision. I feel the bolded parts are the most important because they will come into play in defensive life and death situations. In the heat of the moment when someone is firing at you it is very likely for a shortstroke to occur (or not stroking the action at all) with a pump shotgun. Yes operator training can help a lot but the still the chances of this happening are higher than a malfunction with an autoloader.

In regards to the combat reloading, this is the act of just loading 1 round in the chamber to fire 1 more shot when there is not enough time for a full reload. With a pump shotgun, after the last round has been fired there is nothing to tell the user except for the fall of the hammer. This is very important because it means that you need to attempt to fire another round before you can tell that there was no round to be fired. Generally when you fire a round you are aiming at the enemy and exposing at least a portion of your body. So, with a pump shotgun you essentially need to expose yourself before you can tell you have fired your last round. (Unless you count rounds, which nobody can do reliably in a tense situation, or manually check the chamber) Then, once you finally do notice you are empty, you must rack the action to the rear, deposit a round into the chamber and rack the action back forward.

With an autoloader, it is quite different. After the last round is fired, the bolt will lock to the rear. The user can sense this (it feels/sounds different than a normal round being fired) as well as visually see the bolt being locked back and an open sight to the chamber. Essentially it is the same as an AR-15 for anyone that has experience with them. Once this is noticed, the user then deposits a round into the ejection port and releases the bolt back forward. Not only is this much faster to sense and perform than with a pump, but you do not need to expose yourself.



With these points in mind I hope it will make your decision easier. Both weapons systems are great and I would not be opposed to either but I honestly prefer an autoloader, especially for a defensive situation.

Also, I did not bring up the "pro" of the pump shotgun: Racking the action causes fear. This is not a pro and I will explain why:
#1 Quit believing everything you see on TV.
#2 Quit believing everything you see on TV.
#3 The audible sound not only lets the enemy know you are armed but can also exposes your covered and concealed position.
#4 Needing to rack the action to put a round in the chamber means you did not have a round in the chamber to begin with, and you are a moron. A shotgun stored for defensive purposes should always be hot loaded (round in the chamber), not only is it one less thing you need to do but it also give you 1 more round ready to go before needing to reload. This is the reason why shotgun round capacities are always listed as 4+1, 5+1, 8+1, etc.

[Rancidpunk666]

A semi auto shot gun makes just as load of a noise when cycling action as a pump.

A pump can actually be shot, cycled re aimed and shot again quicker than a semi auto. My point being...
You go limp in weak arm for a brief moment and let the rise of the weapon force your arm back while gripping the forearm then when you return forearm to the extended position you allow the shot gun to fall and realign sight even before the round is completely chambered


Also, I do not leave a round chambered as I have trained to announce In a break in,

If you value your life you will leave this house.


If they fail to leave in less than 3 seconds I'm cycling and killing them

I do not want to kill someone unless I absolutely have to and in a hd situation you do not want to fire unless absolutely prepared to kill. Having a round chambered leaves a little to easy to blow someone's brains out with out fully thinking through the consequences, such as a child entering the house after curfew.

Also if you are not counting rounds as you fire you are a complete and utter idiot. Try not counting rounds with a 10 round 22lr pistol with no last round hold while going through 100 rounds at the range. Go ahead and hit that firing pin into the barrel 20 times or so. Your going to be replacing a firing pin.

99% of your whining issues you brought up can be solved with training. And if your not dry firing at least once a week and live fire training once a month with at least 50 rounds you have no fucking business claiming you're going to use a weapon in self defense.

[Syk0tiK]

Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666

A semi auto shot gun makes just as load of a noise when cycling action as a pump.

Where did I say a semi auto made less noise?

Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666

A pump can actually be shot, cycled re aimed and shot again quicker than a semi auto. My point being...
You go limp in weak arm for a brief moment and let the rise of the weapon force your arm back while gripping the forearm then when you return forearm to the extended position you allow the shot gun to fall and realign sight even before the round is completely chambered

No, it cant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY0ufo8W8DU

[Syk0tiK]

Originally Posted by Rancidpunk666

A semi auto shot gun makes just as load of a noise when cycling action as a pump.

A pump can actually be shot, cycled re aimed and shot again quicker than a semi auto. My point being...
You go limp in weak arm for a brief moment and let the rise of the weapon force your arm back while gripping the forearm then when you return forearm to the extended position you allow the shot gun to fall and realign sight even before the round is completely chambered


Also, I do not leave a round chambered as I have trained to announce In a break in,

If you value your life you will leave this house.


If they fail to leave in less than 3 seconds I'm cycling and killing them

I do not want to kill someone unless I absolutely have to and in a hd situation you do not want to fire unless absolutely prepared to kill. Having a round chambered leaves a little to easy to blow someone's brains out with out fully thinking through the consequences, such as a child entering the house after curfew.

Also if you are not counting rounds as you fire you are a complete and utter idiot. Try not counting rounds with a 10 round 22lr pistol with no last round hold while going through 100 rounds at the range. Go ahead and hit that firing pin into the barrel 20 times or so. Your going to be replacing a firing pin.

99% of your whining issues you brought up can be solved with training. And if your not dry firing at least once a week and live fire training once a month with at least 50 rounds you have no fucking business claiming you're going to use a weapon in self defense.

Nobody is whining you stupid inbred fuck, where the fuck do you get the idea this thread was started for an argument?

This thread was simply made to give readers the pro's and con's of each platform to help in buying decisions because this place is severely lacking in content. (Thanks Sanjay)

Please, take your 10k ass elsewhere and crap in other threads.

[armage]

Originally Posted by Syk0tiK

Where did I say a semi auto made less noise?

I agree about not keeping a hot weapon in your house, especially a larger weapon were someone may find it not neccessarily locked up. (I live on my own and dont have children for example... I dont lock up my two defensive arms) so as far as this point, I think he was trying to build on Semi vs Auto initial loading/racking.

Originally Posted by Syk0tiK

No, it cant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY0ufo8W8DU

If your firing twelve rounds in 1.4 seconds in a defense situation, youve obliterated the guy in front, and winged the guy in back while his buddy is dropping... just saying. I shoot a lot of trap, and Ive tried auto and pump guns, I personally think the pump does have a more natural point of return for ME. Dude does try to over explain it with ... but I know that i instinctively point with my pump far better than I ever did with an auto. I would place my life on that accuracy over rate of fire anyday.

[mikeawesome]

full auto shotgun

[Rancidpunk666]

Originally Posted by Syk0tiK

Nobody is whining you stupid inbred fuck, where the fuck do you get the idea this thread was started for an argument?

This thread was simply made to give readers the pro's and con's of each platform to help in buying decisions because this place is severely lacking in content. (Thanks Sanjay)

Please, take your 10k ass elsewhere and crap in other threads.

Then go to a fucking firearms forum you fucking twit.

Op has no business owning a gun when he posts idiotic comments about not following basic firearm/defense training

Such knowing how many rounds you fired.

[Foolioq]

I don't know shit about firearms, but nothing says mother fucking boss like the chamber loading of a pump action shotgun