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Nah, his response will be something like:

Its a race car, you cant extrapolate that to real world cars, it cost infinitely more money to create a strong V6 than the I6, I6 FTW

or

They only went with the V6 for packaging reasons, any real car enthusiast would want an I6, its the best engine configuration ever, maaaaaaan.

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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
Of course Audi used V6s. They don't make a straight six... DURrrrrrrr. Neither does VW and Toyota, who own Audi. Why would they spend millions to win with a configuration they don't use?

This doesn't show that the minivan format is superior in any way shape or form. They were electric hybrids - a brand new technology for the circuit. If anything this shows that electric motors kick ass. Then lets not forget the race lasts 3000 miles. A lot for a race but it doesn't translate into a smooth, dependable road car motor by default either.

Anyway besides Porsche, Audi has won more Le mans than anyone else. They know how to get it done, with any engine and more power to them. But Jehanum doesn't even have an Audi TDI. Or a hybrid. He has a maxima v6. Call me when Nissan wins Le Mans with one of those

So he combined the two.

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Nah, his response will be something like:

Its a race car, you cant extrapolate that to real world cars, any real car enthusiast would want an I6, its the best engine configuration ever, maaaaaaan.

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He also thinks that the BMW M10 motor was run as-produced in F1.

Didn't they use to call the M10 the hand grenade?
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:47 AM someone else is offline  
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But Jehanum doesn't even have an Audi TDI. Or a hybrid. He has a maxima v6. Call me when Nissan wins Le Mans with one of those

Do you really want to go down that road?

The VG was dominant in IMSA up until it was banned, causing Nissan to run the VH45DE. That's right, they slowed the car down by putting a V8 in it.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:52 AM Jehannum is offline  
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Not really a fair comparison; after all Audi used hybrid technology in the R18 to win.
And, no one else was allowed to use hybrid technology. Definitely not fair!
Old 06-18-2012, 04:18 PM Stereodude is offline  
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You really think the race TDI engine shares any parts/design with a production engine?

Thats my point.

Instead of talking about one-off multi-million dollar pride projects like you see in Le Mans, try following GT cars if you are going to draw real life parallels to production cars.

Example: 24 hours of Nurburgring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hour...rgring#Winners


Winners: let's see, a ton of Porch and BMWs with flat/H6s, and a couple V8s. Audi finally got their first win ever - with a v10.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:11 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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He also thinks that the BMW M10 motor was run as-produced in F1.

It was the actual M10 block, yes.

They would pull them straight from the car, sometimes from junkyards. I don't know what other words you're trying to put in my mouth, but that's the story behind the M10.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:12 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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It was the actual M10 block, yes.

They would pull them straight from the car, sometimes from junkyards. I don't know what other words you're trying to put in my mouth, but that's the story behind the M10.

Block being different from engine, though. The entire rotating assembly, heads, everything would be different. In early Turbo F1 years, it wasn't uncommon for a standard production block to be tweaked and milled, then filled with all sorts of fancy parts for it to up to spec.
Old 06-18-2012, 08:24 PM gribly is offline  
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Block being different from engine, though. The entire rotating assembly, heads, everything would be different. In early Turbo F1 years, it wasn't uncommon for a standard production block to be tweaked and milled, then filled with all sorts of fancy parts for it to up to spec.

Right, yea

I don't recall saying it was a stock engine, that's the DJ-hanum remix version

I think the more a motorsport has to do with cars we can actually get the better. Bmw claims the main reason they pulled out of F1 is the lack of applicability. The research doesn't lead to anything that can be used on a road car.

Although a 19k rpm M3 would be nice.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:32 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Thats my point.

Instead of talking about one-off multi-million dollar pride projects like you see in Le Mans, try following GT cars if you are going to draw real life parallels to production cars.

Example: 24 hours of Nurburgring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hour...rgring#Winners


Winners: let's see, a ton of Porch and BMWs with flat/H6s, and a couple V8s. Audi finally got their first win ever - with a v10.

Surely if the I6 were the actually superior engine instead of simply the "mathematically" superior engine, Audi would get with the program and drop those silly minivan motors from their LMP cars.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:25 AM Jehannum is offline  
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Surely if the I6 were the actually superior engine instead of simply the "mathematically" superior engine, Audi would get with the program and drop those silly minivan motors from their LMP cars.
And even that depends on the math you're looking at. The only real advantage of an I6 is its secondary balance - torsional stiffness, moving mass, weight, packing volume, etc... all still favor a V6 layout.

Granted, secondary balance is a good thing to have in some cases. Like big diesel engines - truckers appreciate it when they spend 16+ hours behind the wheel in a semi that isn't shaking the fuck out of them. In a race car, not quite so important.
Old 06-19-2012, 05:50 AM gee is offline  
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Do you really want to go down that road?

The VG was dominant in IMSA up until it was banned, causing Nissan to run the VH45DE. That's right, they slowed the car down by putting a V8 in it.

Well, really, it was dominant in IMSA until Toyota beat them in aerodynamics and Jaguar brought the cost-no-object XJR-14 over... and I'd *like* to think the Mazda RX-792P was stiff competition too, except the exhaust kept catching the car on fire and shit like that meant that it really wasn't. The NPT-90 cars faced a lot stiffer competition than the ZX-Turbo cars did and they sorta pushed the aerodynamics too hard, to where they sometimes did evil things on track. Not sure what you're talking about with mention of the VH; those really only showed up in the European variants.

Did I mention GTP and Group C cars are like my favoritest thing evar?

Speaking of which, I so cannot wait for the 2014 regs so we can have this travesty of engine regulations we have now over and done with.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:49 PM mekilljoydammit is offline  
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Well, really, it was dominant in IMSA until Toyota beat them in aerodynamics and Jaguar brought the cost-no-object XJR-14 over... and I'd *like* to think the Mazda RX-792P was stiff competition too, except the exhaust kept catching the car on fire and shit like that meant that it really wasn't. The NPT-90 cars faced a lot stiffer competition than the ZX-Turbo cars did and they sorta pushed the aerodynamics too hard, to where they sometimes did evil things on track. Not sure what you're talking about with mention of the VH; those really only showed up in the European variants.

Did I mention GTP and Group C cars are like my favoritest thing evar?

Speaking of which, I so cannot wait for the 2014 regs so we can have this travesty of engine regulations we have now over and done with.

I was more referring to the IMSA GTS-1 Z32 that swapped from VG to VH power in 1995 (which still won its class at the 24H of Daytona).
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:40 PM Jehannum is offline  
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Surely if the I6 were the actually superior engine instead of simply the "mathematically" superior engine, Audi would get with the program and drop those silly minivan motors from their LMP cars.

As I stated already why would they spend millions to win with something you don't produce? The point is marketing, advertisement and something for people with audi v6 engines to talk about. Or even with a nissan V6 if they want attention
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:46 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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As I stated already why would they spend millions to win with something you don't produce? The point is marketing, advertisement and something for people with audi v6 engines to talk about. Or even with a nissan V6 if they want attention

They didn't produce the V12 TDI they won with in previous years, so your statement isn't worth the electrons it takes to switch the pixels on my monitor.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:48 PM Jehannum is offline  
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And even that depends on the math you're looking at. The only real advantage of an I6 is its secondary balance - torsional stiffness, moving mass, weight, packing volume, etc... all still favor a V6 layout.

Granted, secondary balance is a good thing to have in some cases. Like big diesel engines - truckers appreciate it when they spend 16+ hours behind the wheel in a semi that isn't shaking the fuck out of them. In a race car, not quite so important.

Balance is important for reliability also. In 3 hour F1 style racing there's no balance considerations. The engines simply self destruct to a degree and get rebuilt. For 24 hour races with an element of endurance it becomes much more of an issue.

Straight engine cranks have less rotational inertia than fully balanced V6 cranks with bob weights (one on each end, compensates for missing conrod, pin and piston due to offset cylinder banks), which are not present on the straight six. Besides those, the normal weights only have to compensate for the skinny half of the connecting rod.

So if I get what you meant by "moving weight" in street cars it's an advantage for the i6, and a wash in racing if those v6s aren't fully balanced.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:49 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Well, really, it was dominant in IMSA until Toyota beat them in aerodynamics and Jaguar brought the cost-no-object XJR-14 over... and I'd *like* to think the Mazda RX-792P was stiff competition too, except the exhaust kept catching the car on fire and shit like that meant that it really wasn't. The NPT-90 cars faced a lot stiffer competition than the ZX-Turbo cars did and they sorta pushed the aerodynamics too hard, to where they sometimes did evil things on track. Not sure what you're talking about with mention of the VH; those really only showed up in the European variants.

Did I mention GTP and Group C cars are like my favoritest thing evar?

Speaking of which, I so cannot wait for the 2014 regs so we can have this travesty of engine regulations we have now over and done with.

What's changing?
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:49 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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