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refault
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
So how are:


supposed to be interpreted? And on what grounds do you base this interpretation?

They are pretty explicit passages about the rightness of killing infidels, so I'm still not sure why you think people will arrive at their "true" "not evil, but appropriate for the times" meaning on their own.

Furthermore, how do you rationalize the subjugation of women under Islam? Spare me the "it honours them" , because if they were honored they'd be able to do things on their own without their husband's permission.

What I posted earlier in this thread. Please read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by refault View Post
at you quoting Ali, one of the Shi'as "holy people." No wonder the Shia are crazy.

Not one of these passages states that you must kill the person. It is mainly showing the disgust/contempt of these people and the disgust/contempt that Allah (SWT) has for the people who have rejected Islam/rejecting Islam after embracing it.

There is nothing inherently "omfg you must kill them" in these. Plus, a couple of these aren't even from the original, widely accepted Sunnah/Hadithas; you took something written after them in a couple of these passages.

The first passage that you quoted from the Qur'an is in the context of doing dawah; or spreading the word of Islam/bringing people to Islam. These are mainly dealing with hostile people who are against the Islamic faith (atheists, etc. who actively engage against Islam) and are stating that you shouldn't be friends with your enemies. How is this "violent/proscribing death/etc."?? You can find this in any other religion also.

Read any religious text from Christianity/Judaism and you will find similar if not more "violent" passages; you can pull this trick with any religion.

And yes, Islam is the religion of peace if you take the time to understand it and not listen to all the hype/banter that certain Islamophobic "experts" or some of the so-called "Islamic" nutjob banter that these guys put out. It is like taking a few bad seeds that have masked the religion under their extremism/retardedness and claimed to be the speaker/examples of all of what Islam is/should be.


Also, the treatment of women in "Islamic countries" are moreso dictated by culture rather than Islam. Again, if you read the Qur'an you will find nothing in regards to "persecuting women" in the book. The husband does not have a control over the wife in Islam. This is yet again culture being practiced over Islam and unfortunately being interpreted as Islam.

For example: In the corrupt, retarded government of Saudi Arabia, an "Islamic" country, the government does not allow women to drive cars because they believe that this will lead them to do "haram" activities. NO WHERE does it state in the Qur'an that women can't do things that men can, or women can't integrate into society, etc. Look at any other so-called "Islamic" country and you will find Saudi Arabia's judgement/rulings quite rediculous and that women can drive cars.

You have to understand that Saudi Arabia also is under the teachings of corrupt, strict, and idealist driven school systems that try and instill very old-school (7th century values and traditions) ideas into people. THIS IS CULTURE, not Islam.

"Islamic countries" do not represent the religion Islam. They are unsucessfully trying to put Islam into practice, which does not work and isn't supposed to be governed in the way they (have been) trying. The Qur'an and Hadiths/Sunnah represent Islam, not governments or bodies of people/societies.
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Last edited by refault; 04-06-2008 at 12:52 AM..
Old 04-06-2008, 12:45 AM refault is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by refault View Post
at you quoting Ali, one of the Shi'as "holy people." No wonder the Shia are crazy.
They're not any crazier than Sunni muslims or Christians. Plenty of Shia live throughout Arabia, Anatolia, the fertile crescent etc, and get along just fine with their Sunni majority compatriots.

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Originally Posted by refault View Post
Not one of these passages states that you must kill the person. It is mainly showing the disgust/contempt of these people and the disgust/contempt that Allah (SWT) has for the people who have rejected Islam/rejecting Islam after embracing it.
You're right it's just heavily suggested


Quote:
Originally Posted by refault View Post
There is nothing inherently "omfg you must kill them" in these. Plus, a couple of these aren't even from the original, widely accepted Sunnah/Hadithas; you took something written after them in a couple of these passages.
Whether the rule is absolute or not it's very clearly implied in these passages that that's what a devout Muslim would do.

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Originally Posted by refault View Post
The first passage that you quoted from the Qur'an is in the context of doing dawah; or spreading the word of Islam/bringing people to Islam. These are mainly dealing with hostile people who are against the Islamic faith (atheists, etc. who actively engage against Islam) and are stating that you shouldn't be friends with your enemies. How is this "violent/proscribing death/etc."??
Re-read the passage if you seriously can't figure out where the violent bits are. Renegades in that passage is in my opinion very clearly referring to people who decide to reject Islam, which hardly justifys slaying them.

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Originally Posted by refault View Post
You can find this in any other religion also.

Read any religious text from Christianity/Judaism and you will find similar if not more "violent" passages; you can pull this trick with any religion.
No shit. My contention was never that Islam is an especially violent religion, religion is only a force for violence as far as their followers choose to interpret it in such a fashion. However your contention that there are not violent passages in Islamic religious texts or justifications within the Qur'an for violent behavior is . Indeed much of Mohammed's own life is full of violence, war, and murder carried out by his own hand. Of course that doesn't mean that Muslims need to follow Mohammad's example in that particular way but obviously some Muslims feel justified using violence as Mohammad did. You don't have any real justification for claiming that they're the one's who are misinterpreting the intentions of the Qur'an or Mohammad's will, the contest between who has the "right" interpretation of religion is pointless, neither side can offer any real proof that their's is the correct interpretation.

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Originally Posted by refault View Post
And yes, Islam is the religion of peace if you take the time to understand it and not listen to all the hype/banter that certain Islamophobic "experts" or some of the so-called "Islamic" nutjob banter that these guys put out. It is like taking a few bad seeds that have masked the religion under their extremism/retardedness and claimed to be the speaker/examples of all of what Islam is/should be.
Islam is no more the religion of peace than Christianity is. You're right in that we shouldn't be singling out Islam as some sort of especially evil religion, but I'm not going to overlook that it has the same faults of other religions as well.

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Right back at ya bud.
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did you read the next verse?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.090
YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
That really doesn't make slaying someone because they rejected Islam but weren't part of a group you had special treatys with any more moral.
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you have to keep in mind those are just 2 or 3 verses in the Quran, that's not the entire Quran. I'm not saying the Quran contradicts itself but if you guy look at the verses in the way your looking at them it sorta does, and who said contradictions were a bad thing? that's just not the general message of the Quran, all muslims know that the Quran teaches the value of a human life and to be peaceful and just. The Quran was revealed to the prophet at his time during what he was going through, we're supposed to learn from that. and the message of islam is meant to be understood through the general agreement of the present scholars as every new generation someone will renew it. and i'm not just making that up. the prophet never started killing people randomely instead he spread word through letters to the various leaders of the time and through his actions and speech and the Quran(representing it in its beauty) for the people at the time. why would the Quran have verses of random killing if it wanted to have islam prosper in the present and future, and why did the message of random killing not catch on at anytime whatsoever of the lifetime of islam. and islam is considered to be a renewal and completion of the previous jewish and christian faiths and we know those faiths themselves don't teach such. (ok i just finished reading the above posts) i guess you think that they do, well i guess my post still applies.
the violence that happened at the prophets time was clearly necessary because it was a violent time, that was the reality. and like many people state when referrencing the bible you don't take everything literally, the Qur'an is almost entirely symbolic if not entirely and if you take a single verse out and look at it without proper understanding of the Quran you'll get lost.
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Last edited by Lynxz; 04-06-2008 at 05:05 PM..
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynxz View Post
you have to keep in mind those are just 2 or 3 verses in the Quran, that's not the entire Quran. I'm not saying the Quran contradicts itself but if you guy look at the verses in the way your looking at them it sorta does, and who said contradictions were a bad thing?

So the Quran contradicts itself. Nice to hear someone admit that.

Quote:
that's just not the general message of the Quran, all muslims know that the Quran teaches the value of a human life and to be peaceful and just.
If all muslims knew it, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in today.

Quote:
The Quran was revealed to the prophet at his time during what he was going through, we're supposed to learn from that. and the message of islam is meant to be understood through the general agreement of the present scholars as every new generation someone will renew it. and i'm not just making that up. the prophet never started killing people randomely instead he spread word through letters to the various leaders of the time and through his actions and speech and the Quran(representing it in its beauty) for the people at the time.
Spreading Islam by the sword is hardly a noble venture.

Quote:
why would the Quran have verses of random killing if it wanted to have islam prosper in the present and future
I have no fucking idea why.

Quote:
and why did the message of random killing not catch on at anytime whatsoever of the lifetime of islam.


Do you really want me to list the many wars Islam has been a part of?

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and islam is considered to be a renewal and completion of the previous jewish and christian faiths
Musilms may think of it that way, but it sure as shit doesn't make it true.

Quote:
and we know those faiths themselves don't teach such.
True. But that's hardly proof that Islam doesn't. Especially when you read passages like the one which have been posted. (There are more)

Quote:
the violence that happened at the prophets time was clearly necessary because it was a violent time, that was the reality. and like many people state when referrencing the bible you don't take everything literally, the Qur'an is almost entirely symbolic if not entirely and if you take a single verse out and look at it without proper understanding of the Quran you'll get lost.
Violence was NECESSARY back then? Yeah ok buddy. Examine the history of Buddhism and get back to me.

Where would I get a proper understanding of the Quran if not in the heart of the Islamic world? And what makes your interpretation the right one?
Old 04-06-2008, 10:22 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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Lynxz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
So the Quran contradicts itself. Nice to hear someone admit that.
yes, but if you looked at something that was completely constructed out of contradictions would you really see there to be a contradiction? what i'm telling you is that the Qur'an flows in heavenly harmony and even beyond that and it has no contradictions.


Quote:
If all muslims knew it, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in today.
i don't understand, you're telling me that muslims believe in killing, then why do we live peacefully with each other being so large that only small area contain fighting and those are areas where muslims are being oppressed.

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Spreading Islam by the sword is hardly a noble venture.
since when was the sword or gun not noble, people obsess with it in all directions.


Quote:
I have no fucking idea why.
because that wasn't the complete message.


Quote:


Do you really want me to list the many wars Islam has been a part of?
like i said war was the norm back then, it was what made the world go round.


Quote:
Musilms may think of it that way, but it sure as shit doesn't make it true.
islam accepts those faiths and their books.

Quote:
True. But that's hardly proof that Islam doesn't. Especially when you read passages like the one which have been posted. (There are more)
what can i tell you, fighting is a part of islam. this world we live in has fighting as a reality, and suffering. and we don't really understand those to their fullest degree because if we did they probably wouldn't exist, or atleast not in the same way.

Quote:
Violence was NECESSARY back then? Yeah ok buddy. Examine the history of Buddhism and get back to me.
buddha had a message for his people, islam is a message for everyone.
Quote:
Where would I get a proper understanding of the Quran if not in the heart of the Islamic world? And what makes your interpretation the right one?
read more of the Quran itself and the explanation of the verses, and prophetic sayings, are you telling me that christians follow jesus?(not completely) there are tons of great muslims out there, the heart of islam isn't located in whomever you seem to attribute it to.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:37 PM Lynxz is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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You can make up whatever you want about how Islam isn't inherently violent/oppressive/intolerant (it is, but continue believing what you want) since that's what this thread is about, but don't start preaching about how Islam is superior to other religions. Make a different thread if you want to do that.
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