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Aragon-TypeR
Aragon
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
sometimes people should just understand that the old days were better in a sense. Sure, everyone didn't have electricity and perhaps cholera was a common cause of death and all, but sheesh it's really come down to the point where we can't hang people on the spot. That's sad in a way

I.....don't know what that even means
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:08 AM Aragon-TypeR is offline  
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Straw Man
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And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragon View Post
I.....don't know what that even means

Why wait for documentaries? Let's just get the bastard hanged and forget about it. Problem solved, no documentaries, no nothing. Everyone wins. Hey, it worked for Mussolini. Would have worked for Hitler too, if he had the stones.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:28 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Aragon-TypeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Why wait for documentaries? Let's just get the bastard hanged and forget about it. Problem solved, no documentaries, no nothing. Everyone wins. Hey, it worked for Mussolini. Would have worked for Hitler too, if he had the stones.

The entire media machine is different now from back then.

People don't care, as someone else in this thread said, so long as people can hear the news about whats going to happen to the Golden Globe ceremony and can watch MTV they don't care what their leaders do in their name.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:43 AM Aragon-TypeR is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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Winning huh?

I have yet to see anything even close to a definition of what exactly is "winning"... and for that matter how do we know when weve won or even how do we know if weve "killed them all"?

Pray tell.
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:56 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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#34  

Free_Willy
 
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OpEdNews



Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/ope...ge_s_succe.htm

..


February 3, 2008



Is the Surge's Success a Delusion?



By Curt Day




The presidential candidates have changed their focus since the summer. Back then, they were more concerned about the War on Iraq; now, they are focusing on the economy. Does this quick change mean that our candidates suffer from ADD? According to these candidates, the answer would be no. Instead, the candidates from both parties appear to believe the claim that the surge is working. After all, we are constantly being told that both the number of attacks and deaths are down since the surge has taken effect.

Many who oppose the war have rushed, sometimes in panic mode, to explain this apparent success. Explanations have ranged from attributing the decline in deaths to the fact that there are now fewer people to kill due to past casualties and the fact that over 4 million refugees have fled their homes to the numerous claims that American troops are now going out on fewer missions.

Those who support the war see the apparent success of the surge as a godsend. Assuming that “the ends justify the means,” the surge has finally brought what our past efforts have failed to produce: success. Now that the surge is working, they feel that we are finally on the right course and thus the surge, and the war, should sail on full-steam ahead. Is their renewed optimism justified?

The answer to this question is complicated because not all of the statistics support the surge. In particular, the websites http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://icasualties.org/oif/ though producing somewhat contradictory results, contain data that indicates the surge is not working.

For example, the Iraq Body Count website shows that the number of civilian deaths has been gradually dwindling since it peaked in November 2006. If the count from this website is correct, then the decrease in civilian deaths started before both the surge started and had time to take effect.

The Iraq Coalition Casualties website gives a different picture. These statistics, often differing from the Iraq Body Count website, shows a consistent trend in the number of Iraqi deaths starting in 2005. That trend reveals a spike in Iraqi deaths in either the months of August or September followed by a gradual decrease for the remainder of the year. So the reduction in Iraqi deaths that started in September of this year also occurred during the years of 2005 and 2006. We should also note that since September, the number of Iraqi deaths continued to decline until January of 2008 where the number of Iraqi deaths actually increased by 1 percent. In addition, this website also shows that the surge has yet to reduce the percentage of civilian deaths in Iraq which has not dropped below 80% since April of 2006.

Regardless of what the statistics from the above websites say about the effectiveness of the surge, the last NIE on Iraq predicted that the surge would reduce the number of Iraqi deaths but that the number Iraqis killed would still remain significant. The latter part of this forecast has been supported by all statistics. Now we in the anti-war movement need to ask ourselves if the surge must fail in order for us to make our point. To the extent that we answer with a yes, the less objective we will be in analyzing the events in Iraq. And the less fair we are in dealing with the facts, the less credibility we will have when presenting our case against war.

We should all want the violence in Iraq to fall regardless of the context; but unlike our pro-war counterparts, our convictions should be based on both principles and absolute values than on immediate results. We should note what Christian Fundamentalist social commentator Francis Schaeffer observed about those who do not hold to moral absolutes. Such people, according to Schaeffer, seek their own “personal peace and prosperity.” We should also note that one does not have to be religious to hold to moral absolutes. Indeed, Chomsky’s constant reminder of the universal principle states that the standards we apply to others must be applied to ourselves as well can be practiced by all. But what often runs counter to holding to moral absolutes is the American sacred cow: patriotism. The more patriotic one is, the less that person will hold to absolute values because loyalty to one’s country, that is what immediately benefits one’s country, will play a greater role in determining what is right and wrong than moral absolutes.

The problem with trading morals for nationalism is that it does not apply to us Americans alone; it can apply to everyone—especially when we provide such a strong role model for the world. So as patriots from other countries push their leaders to act in the best interests of their citizens, especially the wealthiest ones, our world becomes filled with countries less inclined to act with self-restraint and more inclined to act with self-interest. In a world where an ever advancing and adulterous technology has filled the world with modern weapons, the more ominous, a world filled with nations placing self-interests above moral absolutes, becomes.

This is what our pro-war counterparts must learn, that the War on Iraq violates moral values as were stated in both the UN Charter and the standards used at the Nuremburg Trials. But the War on Iraq is not just wrong; it significantly threatens our future regardless of its present success. We should only note that any pride and sense of security gained from even a successful surge only enables us to live in a fantasy world that awaits its doom.
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Last edited by Free_Willy; 02-03-2008 at 03:10 AM..
Old 02-03-2008, 03:08 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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#35  

MisterKinish
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Last edited by MisterKinish; 02-03-2008 at 04:30 AM..
Old 02-03-2008, 04:29 AM MisterKinish is offline  
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#36  

Malakai
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by UID=30151 View Post
Didn't 2007 have the most American casualties since the War started?

Yes absolutely. The numbers they release don't include all the american "military contractors" that are killed either.


But we are "winning". The surge is "working". American politicians/diplomats can move about Iraq "unguarded". (mccain said him & generals do this, yet the video of their trip showed whole divisions sealing off entire streets for their visit, in case you dont youtube).


Redefining words is fun right? Our govt/media is pro at that. Just like John McCain is a "conservative" and there is no "inflation". Oh and all the candidates will bring "change", can't forget that.

Last edited by Malakai; 02-03-2008 at 04:51 AM..
Old 02-03-2008, 04:47 AM Malakai is offline  
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#37  

Xayd
 
i thought iraq was all sunshine and roses 3 weeks ago, wonder how this is happening?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0326/p01s13-woiq.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/wo...26iraq.html?hp

Old 03-25-2008, 02:48 PM Xayd is offline  
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#38  

blue_monk
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because real news is boring and drama sells advertisements
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:33 AM blue_monk is offline  
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#39  

BigFuzzyArchon
 
 
media has taken the job of the church in controlling the masses

what I don't understand is how more people cannot see the media is basically making shit up to get you to think a certain way

the presidential election is the biggest sham I have ever seen. I honestly don't understand how people can watch some of this shit and not know we are being fucked over. All this hilary/obama stuff is INSANELY contrived, the candidates know this and play their parts because they just want to move up higher on the ladder and if this is what it takes then so be it.

Last edited by BigFuzzyArchon; 03-26-2008 at 04:09 PM..
Old 03-26-2008, 04:03 PM BigFuzzyArchon is offline  
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#40  

spleeny
 
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This is exactly the same argument had by your grand/parents during Vietnam.


We might have even had a chance this go-round, except for absolute morons like Woflowiz, Rumsfeld, and that asshat Paul Bremer. Unfortunately the President swallowed it hook line and sinker, and now we're fucked.


"It is hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and to secure the surrender of Saddam's security forces and his army - hard to imagine." (Neocon hero Wolfowiz)


Indeed.
Old 03-27-2008, 01:17 PM spleeny is offline  
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#41  

G-Snake
 
The Pit never fails to warm my heart.

Anyone who actually sits down and watches CNN/FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC and their affiliates and extracts conclusive opinions about such things as, but not limited to: the 'war' in Iraq, China, global warming, or the downfall of the American economy should not voice that opinion in a public forum. I don't even classify those aforementioned 'news' networks as news providers anymore, it's 'evolved' into an entertainment industry.

I feel bad for the American people, being lead along like sheep, basically to the slaughterhouse, oblivious to the impending doom they're about to experience. As it is, the pricks of corporate America have sandpaper condoms and your average American is the whore who's being anally assaulted.

ps. Not all of corporate America were spawned from the ovaries of Satan himself, there are corporations out there who are as honest as most of us, the unfortunate thing is that the bad apples happen to control the media, which in this day in age, happens to control the opinions and perspectives of most people who are unwilling or unable to formulate their own conclusions based on unbiased sources.

Or maybe I'm just a dumb fucking Canadian who should go back to his igloo and smoke his pot, which I will do, assholes.
Old 03-27-2008, 01:18 PM G-Snake is offline  
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#42  

joemama
Watch Toomer burn those cowboys. How bout them cowboys?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Snake View Post

Or maybe I'm just a dumb fucking Canadian who should go back to his igloo and smoke his pot, which I will do, assholes.
What a lovely and excellent idea! mind if I join you after I umm.. help this Moose get over the fence?
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:43 PM joemama is offline  
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#43  

dagamore
 
Gsnake,

What do you think about the BBC and CBC, you know the two 'news' networks that were banned from British Armed Forces network, after being shown to distort the news?
Old 03-27-2008, 08:31 PM dagamore is offline  
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#44  

Xayd
 
BBC is the best news available on TV.
Old 03-27-2008, 08:35 PM Xayd is offline  
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