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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
You certainly sound anti-government in the vast majority of your posts, so you'll forgive me if I thought you didn't like government intervention in such things as the market.
What exactly is "the market"? The buying, selling and licensing of propety. Property is defined by the government-protected exclusive rights of action in relation to the property. The reason we buy the property that we need is because we know that the government would punish us if we tried to take it any other way (which is an essential component of the production of the property in the first place), and because after we've bought it the government would punish anyone else who tries to interfere with our exclusive rights (which is an essential component of putting the property to practical use). The government is the keystone of the very existence of "the market."

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Explain precisely how all forms of socialism don't protect individuals.
Socialism is defined by the collectivized disposition of whatever it is that is being socialized, rather than individual disposition. Every flavour of socialism has that essential characteristic. Any contrast in the welfare of the individual and the welfare of the collective is by definition resolved in favour of the collective.

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If you wish to discuss that issue, which you described horribly by the way, I'm game.
Go to law school for a few years then maybe you would be able to talk about it without boring me to death.

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Can you propose a more efficient way without restricting the individual rights you hold so dear? I have a feeling it'll be some sort of meritocracy but I'll wait until you say it.
Yes, a judiciary with the sole function of protecting individual rights using evidence and reason. But of course, such a system wouldn't tolerate the mediocrity, ineptitude or waste of socialism, so I guess we can't have that
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:33 PM cromicus is offline  
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Straw Man
RuHo
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libertarian shit
yeah. Alright
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:11 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
What exactly is "the market"? The buying, selling and licensing of propety. Property is defined by the government-protected exclusive rights of action in relation to the property. The reason we buy the property that we need is because we know that the government would punish us if we tried to take it any other way (which is an essential component of the production of the property in the first place), and because after we've bought it the government would punish anyone else who tries to interfere with our exclusive rights (which is an essential component of putting the property to practical use). The government is the keystone of the very existence of "the market."

First of all, a market can exist without a government. Don't be a fucking dipshit and pretend it can't.

Second of all, whether the government is the keystone of a market or not isn't relevant. The point is you seem very much against government intervention in most threads and now you seem to be for it. That's all.

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Socialism is defined by the collectivized disposition of whatever it is that is being socialized, rather than individual disposition. Every flavour of socialism has that essential characteristic. Any contrast in the welfare of the individual and the welfare of the collective is by definition resolved in favour of the collective.
Discussion about the nature of socialism continues to this day. A one line definition by a law school poser isn't especially credible. I doubt you've even read any socialist literature.

Anyway, even if your terrible definition was correct, you can socialize a system of individual rights. So there goes your "point".

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Go to law school for a few years then maybe you would be able to talk about it without boring me to death.
Your continuing claims about having gone to law school are amusing.

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Yes, a judiciary with the sole function of protecting individual rights using evidence and reason. But of course, such a system wouldn't tolerate the mediocrity, ineptitude or waste of socialism, so I guess we can't have that
And now we can discuss the finer points of meritocracies. Question the first, how do we decide who judges? Will it be the philosopher kings?
Old 04-05-2008, 05:36 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
First of all, a market can exist without a government. Don't be a fucking dipshit and pretend it can't.
It can't. What we are trading in a market economy is government-created rights.

Quote:
Second of all, whether the government is the keystone of a market or not isn't relevant. The point is you seem very much against government intervention in most threads and now you seem to be for it. That's all.
Yes, well, your total lack of reading comprehension skills is not news to me.

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Anyway, even if your terrible definition was correct, you can socialize a system of individual rights. So there goes your "point".
Is that supposed to be an argument? Statements like this contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion.

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And now we can discuss the finer points of meritocracies. Question the first, how do we decide who judges? Will it be the philosopher kings?
I have no idea and I don't really care. I reject the idea that I have to be a slave under a Soviet-like system, totally devoid of any individual freedom, due to a failure of imagination on a technical detail.
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Old 04-05-2008, 05:51 PM cromicus is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
It can't. What we are trading in a market economy is government-created rights.

Why are you talking about what "we" are doing? The point is a market can exist sans government.

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Yes, well, your total lack of reading comprehension skills is not news to me.
Says the guy who posted this in response to what type of market he supports:
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100% separation of state and voluntary production/distribution/consumption activities. Whatever arises from that is the best. Such a system provides the greatest incentives for solving problems and the greatest punishment for creating them. If we can't progress under such circumstances, then our species is doomed
Yeah, that looks pro-government intervention to me.

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Is that supposed to be an argument? Statements like this contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion.
Says the guy who posted this on the last page:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus, the hypocrite
With each post, your stupidity worsens. It's sad, really...

Also, perhaps you'll address the possibilty of socializing individual rights.

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I have no idea and I don't really care. I reject the idea that I have to be a slave under a Soviet-like system, totally devoid of any individual freedom, due to a failure of imagination on a technical detail.
You think you lack individual freedom in Canada? Are you crazy? What reasonable things can't you do over there?
Old 04-05-2008, 06:13 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
Why are you talking about what "we" are doing? The point is a market can exist sans government.
If it could, I bet you would have explained it by now.

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Yeah, that looks pro-government intervention to me.
It should, if you knew what is meant by the term "voluntary." Now how are we going to make sure that all transactions are voluntary? That calls for some kind of... government maybe.

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Also, perhaps you'll address the possibilty of socializing individual rights.
I already did by saying that what you're talking about is definitively contradictory, and unless you want to elaborate on it I really don't know how to further "address" it.

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You think you lack individual freedom in Canada? Are you crazy? What reasonable things can't you do over there?
I suspect I'm being baited by the word "reasonable" but anything that Parliament and the legislatures say that I can't do or have to do restricts individual freedom.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:20 PM cromicus is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
If it could, I bet you would have explained it by now.

Among the many theories is this one.

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It should, if you knew what is meant by the term "voluntary." Now how are we going to make sure that all transactions are voluntary? That calls for some kind of... government maybe.
First of all, you said you wanted to separate state and voluntary actions in that quote. So how do you propose to separate them if one of them is based on the other?

Secondly, since when does voluntary production have to be government backed? Are you suggesting that I can't do voluntary actions in a state of nature? I'd love to see you offer an argument for that.

But again, even if you dealt with everything I just said, you're still advocating for a system that's ultimately backed by the government but presumably lacks significant intervention by it. Which is different than what you've been saying in this thread.

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I already did by saying that what you're talking about is definitively contradictory, and unless you want to elaborate on it I really don't know how to further "address" it.
It's not contradictory. You can make up a system of individual rights and put it under the control of the community.

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I suspect I'm being baited by the word "reasonable" but anything that Parliament and the legislatures say that I can't do or have to do restricts individual freedom.
I added the word reasonable just to make sure you didn't say something like "I'm not free to kill babies in a public park". What I want to know is, what are the specific kinds of things you want to do but don't feel free to do in Canada?
Old 04-05-2008, 06:38 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
Among the many theories is this one.
Go ahead and relate the so-called anarcho-"capitalism" to my previous explanation on the necessity of government. I'm not going to do the fucking work for you.

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First of all, you said you wanted to separate state and voluntary actions in that quote. So how do you propose to separate them if one of them is based on the other?
State and voluntary transactions are separate. State and involuntary transactions are not.

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Secondly, since when does voluntary production have to be government backed?
It doesn't, your reading comprehension skills are at it again

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But again, even if you dealt with everything I just said, you're still advocating for a system that's ultimately backed by the government but presumably lacks significant intervention by it.
Correct.

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It's not contradictory. You can make up a system of individual rights and put it under the control of the community.
No you can't, because unless they are under the control of the individual, they are not individual rights. If you insist on redefining the term "individual rights" in this way, which only a retarded possum would do, then I'll qualify and say "individual rights UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE APPARENTLY THAT HAS TO BE POINTED OUT FOR THE RETARDED POSSUMS "

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What I want to know is, what are the specific kinds of things do you want to do but don't feel free to do in Canada?
For one thing, operate a sustainable business with a profit margin of less than 36.1%.
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Old 04-05-2008, 06:46 PM cromicus is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
Go ahead and relate the so-called anarcho-"capitalism" to my previous explanation on the necessity of government. I'm not going to do the fucking work for you.

You asked for an example. It was provided. Explain how it doesn't work or drop the point.

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State and voluntary transactions are separate. State and involuntary transactions are not.
Recall:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus
It should, if you knew what is meant by the term "voluntary." Now how are we going to make sure that all transactions are voluntary? That calls for some kind of... government maybe.

Remember yet?

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It doesn't, your reading comprehension skills are at it again
Guess not. Here it is again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus
It should, if you knew what is meant by the term "voluntary." Now how are we going to make sure that all transactions are voluntary? That calls for some kind of... government maybe

Apparently you have difficulty remembering what you posted.

Quote:
No you can't, because unless they are under the control of the individual, they are not individual rights. If you insist on redefining the term "individual rights" in this way, which only a retarded possum would do, then I'll qualify and say "individual rights UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE APPARENTLY THAT HAS TO BE POINTED OUT FOR THE RETARDED POSSUMS "
From the wiki article on individual rights:
Quote:
Individual rights" are the rights of individuals by virtue of their humanness, i.e. their nature as rational beings. Individual rights provide principles to delimit the interaction of individuals in society with respect to personal interactions and the distribution of goods and services. Individual rights are sometimes held to be distinct from human rights, because the latter class is often considered to include human goods and benefits (positive rights) rather than rights proper (negative rights.) Individual rights are an individual's moral claim to freedom of action. Such rights may be respected or recognized by others for reasons of reciprocity, contract, pragmatism, or as a moral imperitive.
I appreciate it's a wiki blurb, but it gets the point across. Either you believe people always have individual rights (they just aren't always honored) or individuals rights are created by some sort of political body. In the former, control isn't relevant. In the latter, presumably the political body is the one respecting and enforcing (i.e.: controlling) these rights.

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For one thing, operate a sustainable business with a profit margin of less than 36.1%.
The (Canadian) Bank of Nova Scotia had a profit margin of 33.33% last year. They strike me as a sustainable business.

Perhaps you can elaborate on what you mean because from here it looks like you're wrong.
Old 04-05-2008, 07:34 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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#24  

Xayd
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus View Post

State and voluntary transactions are separate.

not in a democratic government. they are the same.

changes are easy: win the elections, make the changes.
Old 04-05-2008, 08:35 PM Xayd is offline  
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cromicus
I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuckyouformakingmeregister View Post
The (Canadian) Bank of Nova Scotia had a profit margin of 33.33% last year. They strike me as a sustainable business.
That's after paying income taxes. If your pre-tax earnings are consistently below the income tax rate, you're going out of business. Incidentally, BNS is not a sustainable business but that's for reasons mostly unrelated to this. The rest of your post is too painstakingly devoid of anything that constitutes a comprehensible or articulate idea that my only response would be "what is it you're trying to say?"
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Old 04-05-2008, 09:35 PM cromicus is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
That's after paying income taxes. If your pre-tax earnings are consistently below the income tax rate, you're going out of business. Incidentally, BNS is not a sustainable business but that's for reasons mostly unrelated to this. The rest of your post is too painstakingly devoid of anything that constitutes a comprehensible or articulate idea that my only response would be "what is it you're trying to say?"
But, but, You're Richer Than You Think!
Old 04-05-2008, 09:50 PM HybridPyro is offline  
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wingedbuttmonkey
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
yeah. Alright

I don't understand what you don't like about libertarianism. Could you explain your disdain for the philosophy?
Old 04-05-2008, 11:03 PM wingedbuttmonkey is offline  
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#28  

Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
That's after paying income taxes. If your pre-tax earnings are consistently below the income tax rate, you're going out of business.

We get it, you don't like income tax. This is another puzzle in your shifting government is good/government is bad position.

And since income tax may work differently in Canada, please explain how a gross profit margin of, say, 35% would lead to a business going bankrupt.

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Incidentally, BNS is not a sustainable business but that's for reasons mostly unrelated to this.
BNS is a sustainable business. And if you want to claim it isn't, you'll have to explain why.

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The rest of your post is too painstakingly devoid of anything that constitutes a comprehensible or articulate idea that my only response would be "what is it you're trying to say?"
You know exactly what I'm saying and you have no ability to counter it. So continue planning your Ayn Randian paradise as you "suffer" in bondage in Canada.

Last edited by Fuckyouformakingmeregister; 04-05-2008 at 11:30 PM.. Reason: realized i know nothing about Canadian tax laws
Old 04-05-2008, 11:18 PM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Yeah, because we all know corporations give a crap about the safety of their customers. That Ford Pinto sure was a tank, wasn't it?

I'm capitalist too, only the difference between you and me crom is that I'm not retarded.
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Old 04-05-2008, 11:26 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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