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Gibonius
 
What "liberty and freedoms" are being sacrificed here? You're simply having additional training and discussion between people who are currently ALREADY interacting with these students, and others who are trained to deal with problems. These policies can help prevent suicides, can get kids with emerging mental disorders the help that they need. College is a highly stressful time of life for many people, and many of them don't really handle it well. Training the profs and administrators to look for warning signs and talk to other relevant figures within the school is a good thing.

What exactly is going to go wrong here? Maybe some kid gets asked to do a psych examination that he isn't enthusiastic about, but I'm not seeing the fascist overtones to this.
Old 04-16-2008, 07:45 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
You think professors give a fuck about your personal and social well-being beyond the extent to which you try and use it as leverage for grades? To "ask around" (as if they have a clue who else knows you), or fill out "risk assessment reports" or take "awareness training?"

I'm around professors on a daily basis (I'm a PhD student), and yeah, plenty of them do care about their students. Many do NOT, of course. For the ones that do, it's not difficult to find out what other classes they're taking and see how they're doing. I taught a couple classes and had to do that myself on a few occasions, kids who weren't showing up for class or turning in assignments. This isn't going to happen in your massive lecture classes, but many professors know the students in the upper levels classes at least reasonably well.

Formalizing this system seems at worst a minor waste of resources. Generally training is worthless, but sometimes they'll get a useful system instituted that could make things easier for professors to help students.
Old 04-16-2008, 07:49 PM Gibonius is offline  
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möbiustrip
 
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I'm around professors on a daily basis (I'm a PhD student) and yeah, plenty of them do care about their students.
Nobody cares enough to play counselor for 30 or 100 people a semester; an average preparation is double that. Even nice (read: easy) profs take the path of least resistance with teaching responsibilities.

There are always a few students you get close to because they approach you to learn. And a few who know they suck and want mercy. But to "find out" any information they didn't volunteer, much less take interest in it, is fuckin' creepy. If you still empathize with kids who don't show up or do work, you're in a field, or you haven't been doing it long enough.

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This isn't going to happen in your massive lecture classes, but many professors know the students in the upper levels classes at least reasonably well.
Because they've had years to develop a rapport. You still don't approach these profs when you break up with your girlfriend.

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Formalizing this system seems at worst a minor waste of resources. Generally training is worthless, but sometimes they'll get a useful system instituted that could make things easier for professors to help students.
In my view every layer of administrative nonsense you burden employees with is a reason for smart, talented people to ask themselves why they aren't enjoying a better career in the private sector. Assuming college students can't manage their personal lives is an abhorrent nanny-state ideal that begets 22-year-old children. That "you'll be there" for any of these adults is a lie which exacerbates their social dysfunction.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:30 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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wingedbuttmonkey
 
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Absolutely, with greeater power comes greater responsibility. by not holding power to a higher standard, and by not keeping them scared instead of the other way around, power will abuse and become tyrranical. This is not even worthy of debate, history proves it, our founders stated it bluntly... and they even noted that over time a fearful and complacent populous will endeavor to make excuses for it... exactly as youre doing right now.

NOBODY is guilty until proven innocent. You have the right to your opinion that these people could potentially do something wrong. But until you have a basic fucking shred of evidence to say otherwise, they haven't done anything yet and should not be treated as such.
Old 04-16-2008, 09:04 PM wingedbuttmonkey is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Nobody cares enough to play counselor for 30 or 100 people a semester; an average preparation is double that. Even nice (read: easy) profs take the path of least resistance with teaching responsibilities.

Because they've had years to develop a rapport. You still don't approach these profs when you break up with your girlfriend.
No one is saying that professors should be counselors (at least that I know of), simply that they be aware of the signs of mental illness and point students towards help if they think they need it.
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There are always a few students you get close to because they approach you to learn. And a few who know they suck and want mercy. But to "find out" any information they didn't volunteer, much less take interest in it, is fuckin' creepy. If you still empathize with kids who don't show up or do work, you're in a bullshit field, or you haven't been doing it long enough. :)
I'm a chemist, doesn't seem like a bullshit field to me. I didn't even particularly like teaching, but when a decent student just stops turning in work, it's worth a minute of my time to ask a prof who teaches one of her other classes if he knows what's up if I see him around. Maybe after ten years I'd have given up on that, but I still know professors who have been on the job for 20+ years and still inquire after students who are acting strangely. That concern is part of what makes them a good teacher. The research oriented profs, well, they generally don't give a fuck :lol:
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In my view every layer of administrative nonsense you burden employees with is a reason for smart, talented people to ask themselves why they aren't enjoying a better career in the private sector. Assuming college students can't manage their personal lives is an abhorrent nanny-state ideal that begets 22-year-old children. That "you'll be there" for any of these adults is a lie which exacerbates their social dysfunction.
Again, I do not believe that anyone is advocating professors getting into student's personal lives, only that they become somewhat more aware of any relevant signs of mental disorder that could lead to suicide or (far more unlikely) a mass killing.
Old 04-16-2008, 09:20 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Profiling? Am I the only to find this extremely troubling?

Yes, as usual, you are the only one. Just like you were when the internet cables were cut (which was done by a boat, surprise surprise), and just like you are every fiscal year that you're going to get drafted and fight in Iraq after Bush reinstates the draft FOR SURE this time (yeah, about that...).

Honestly, I don't understand how you ever manage to fall asleep.
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:58 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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What exactly is going to go wrong here? Maybe some kid gets asked to do a psych examination that he isn't enthusiastic about, but I'm not seeing the fascist overtones to this.

It's the implications. It starts all innocent like this, but then Bush cuts some internet cables and drafts you into his Iran invasion as Willy warned us about. I'm honestly scared to death about the potential reprocussions of this clearly dangerous idea.
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:02 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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I will get to replying to the previous posts tomorrow , in the meantime please consider:




In today's society, the elite creates a crisis and the ignorant sheeple demand a solution that almost always undermines the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. More than one investigatpr has uncovered links between school shootings and black projects.

Today it could be an assassination attempt (or success), a high profile school shooting etc as pre-text to introduce a constitutional amendment repealing the 2nd Amendment. Tomorrow, it could be anti-gay speech at a terrorist attack on a gay nightclub that could be used as a pre-text to introduce a constitutional amendment repealing the 1st Amendment. The government has to take away the 1st and 2nd amendments in order to totally enslave us. Take away the right to protest and the right to defend yourself, and the slavery begins almost immediately.

Profiling is a stepping stone in implementation nearly every time.

I hope it never gets to that level, but as Billy Bob Thornton said in Bad Santa, hope in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up faster.

You who have such blind respect, or is it fear, willful ignorance - I dont know what compels you to prefer a perception or hope of propriety where the government is concerned over holding elected and other high office holders accountable to the law of the land and not to the law of public perception completely bewilder me. A Republic stands on its laws, most of the laws of a republic are amed squarely at government, because government is a neccessary negative force that always without exception pushes its bounds.
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:30 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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That German Guy
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This was an attempt at humor, right? - Just checking.

Of course. I capitalized all that shit since the only way to make it true would be to trademark the phrases and then change their meaning completely.

As for your little red graph:
Shens. The japs didn't invade the US because they never had the supply lines to even try to think about attempting that sort of thing.
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Old 04-16-2008, 11:39 PM That German Guy is offline  
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Xayd
 
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if 8 year olds had a minimum 2 handguns at all times natural selection would take care of the shaky ones before they got to college, making the above moot.

or, lol.
Old 04-16-2008, 11:49 PM Xayd is offline  
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Straw Man
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It's very telling of his character when the point of this thread wasn't even about guns and he has to run here and post that. I understand there are certain levels of trouble relating to masculinity and sometimes you're obsessed in a healthy way about something but I think that tells enough.
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:19 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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As for your little red graph:
Shens. The japs didn't invade the US because they never had the supply lines to even try to think about attempting that sort of thing.


Why is it you seem to have a strange proclivity for coming off as if you know something when time and again you are proven wrong?

Even a cursory WIKI proves Japan didnt invade because we are fucking ARMED:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikianswersyoustupidgermandouchebag
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Ja..._invade_the_US

Why did Japan not invade the US?

In: War and Military History




































































































Answer



They did. On Dec 7, 1941 and it was the biggest mistake they ever made because on Dec 8, 1941, the US saw the largest number of volunteers to sign up for the military in recorded history.

Another take

It was a long way to transport troops from Japan to the West Coast. Lots of logistical problems. Look at how hard a full scale invasion was just going across the English Channel on D-Day. Also, they knew that most Americans at that time were armed. However, had they actually taken out the aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbor, they could have possibly pulled it off since we would have not had air cover except close to our own shores.


Now for extra credit google Admiral Yamamoto and see how he specifically feared the ARMED AMERICAN.POPULATION (rapidly being dsarmed now might I add).

No wonder you dumbfuck Jerrys lost the war you BELIEVE before you VERIFY schmuck.

clue: youre not the perfect aryan race, why does it always seem to take an American to verify that fact to you people?

Stick to making good cars, even if you cant figure out how to fuel them up correctly (takes an american to figure that out for you too apparently).
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Last edited by Free_Willy; 04-17-2008 at 11:32 AM..
Old 04-17-2008, 11:28 AM Free_Willy is offline  
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Fuckyouformakingmeregister
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They also didn't realize how successful their initial attack was. You can't overlook uncertainty.
Old 04-17-2008, 11:39 AM Fuckyouformakingmeregister is offline  
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möbiustrip
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
No one is saying that professors should be counselors (at least that I know of), simply that they be aware of the signs of mental illness and point students towards help if they think they need it.
I prefer the administration wallpapering the building with contact info for student services. Everybody knows there's a place (or five) on campus they can seek help for any conceivable problem.

I'd tell a kid to find a shrink if he said he was hearing voices. Failing that, signs of mental illness are, what, not sleeping, lack of motivation, alcohol abuse, no sense of responsibility? Those are symptoms of college.

*shrug* It just seems patronizing, and handled poorly it could cross a line of appropriateness.
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when a decent student just stops turning in work, it's worth a minute of my time to ask a prof who teaches one of her other classes if he knows what's up
I guess it's self-defense. I don't want to know you broke up with your boyfriend, because then I might decide to cut you slack. Then twelve crappy students -- who are like hyenas, and can smell weakness -- want you to cut them slack, too. Then your workload's doubled.

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Again, I do not believe that anyone is advocating professors getting into student's personal lives, only that they become somewhat more aware of any relevant signs of mental disorder that could lead to suicide or (far more unlikely) a mass killing.
If there were "warning signs" that distinguished sad from suicidal and weird from homicidal, these things wouldn't happen.

There aren't. It's feel-good horseshit.

Paper solicits human interest story for VT Massacre anniversary, gives National Assoc. Student Personnel Administrators opportunity to market its own importance.

School employees hypothetically interviewed by telephone too scared of bad PR to deny doing everything possible to find the next Cho before he goes super saiyan.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:46 PM möbiustrip is offline  
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Free_Willy
 
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They also didn't realize how successful their initial attack was. You can't overlook uncertainty.

Weak.

Hitler didnt atack Switzerland because he knew the Swiss are armed as well.
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:59 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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