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Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
hmm
if it exists it is supernatural and may forever be beyond our ability to replicate

This is starting to get somewhat offtopic and belongs more in the current 'God' thread but ill throw it out here anyway.

Supernatural in my opinion is not possible. For something to exist it has to interact with reality in some way. For it to interact in some way it has to be measurable/observable even if the methods for doing so are currently beyond our capabilities.

What difference is there between anything supernatural that can not be observed, measured, and or experienced and something that doesn't exist? Nothing.

To further illustrate this I will direct those following the conversation to a great Carl Sagan piece. I would be surprised if you have not seen it before as I have linked it here in the pit numerous times but just in case someone has never seen it...
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:45 AM Renork is offline  
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TheMorlock
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This is starting to get somewhat offtopic and belongs more in the current 'God' thread but ill throw it out here anyway.

Supernatural in my opinion is not possible. For something to exist it has to interact with reality in some way. For it to interact in some way it has to be measurable/observable even if the methods for doing so are currently beyond our capabilities.

What difference is there between anything supernatural that can not be observed, measured, and or experienced and something that doesn't exist? Nothing.

To further illustrate this I will direct those following the conversation to a great Carl Sagan piece. I would be surprised if you have not seen it before as I have linked it here in the pit numerous times but just in case someone has never seen it...
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jcosta3/article_dragon.htm



Lest say you run a computer program that simulates life. The simulation gets good enough that no one can tell if they are dealing with a simulation or a real being.

Then you the programmer changes something in the program. If the simulation is actualy sentient it will see that change as supernatural. Something that they themselves can never accomplish. As it is something that can only be accomplished by something that is not constrained by the system.
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:42 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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TheMorlock
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oops wrong thread
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:55 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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you are a fucking idiot that claims all you need to do to teleport is think it hard enough in one thread and that reality is shaped by our minds and then you post the above garbage.
I would tell you to get a lobotomy but it would be redundant

i was somewhat joking about teleporting...
but I mean, if it were possible in such a manner that is how you would do it
I mean thats how you do it in non-physical planes of existence already

and reality is shaped by our minds I don't see whats disagreeable about this... really I thought that was philosophy 101 in universities these days

and I love how you find yourself incapable of even beginning to debate with me. I see nothing so grand behind your mere opinion that its worth you typing it. I can just as easily reply to all your stuff with the mere label garbage, that would put you in about the same category of discussion I have with strawman
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:02 AM ry_goody is offline  
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i was somewhat joking about teleporting...
but I mean, if it were possible in such a manner that is how you would do it
I mean thats how you do it in non-physical planes of existence already

and reality is shaped by our minds I don't see whats disagreeable about this... really I thought that was philosophy 101 in universities these days

and I love how you find yourself incapable of even beginning to debate with me. I see nothing so grand behind your mere opinion that its worth you typing it. I can just as easily reply to all your stuff with the mere label garbage, that would put you in about the same category of discussion I have with strawman

how can reality be shaped by your mind if you don't have the free will to shape it

incapable to begin to debate with you? I don't debate with my aloe plant either. The fault obviously lies within me and not any lack in the aloe plant
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:05 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Exactly, the only way it is not going to happen is if the mind is a result of a soul rather than biology. This is highly unlikely.

Also, if there is such a thing a soul it has to actually exist, and if it exists it is natural, and if it is natural it should be replicable.

You cannot forget the brain is quantum. Put all my fringe psychobabble quantum theory aside, thats just for the fun of debate, this is simple truth, simple obvious truth. We are composed of quantum particles, that means we have a layer of pure willable energy at the most microscopic particle level of our being. This is what our synapses are constructed of, this is something our synapses utilize to function. To decipher our entire conciousness we would need not only a complete understanding of the synaptic functions in the brain. But also a full understanding of the very components that construct the synapses right down to the quantum level where waves of possibility turn into points concrescence out of chaos by there mere observation of such. It's my hunch that it is upon that principle of quantum mechanics which the 'will of conciousness' resides, in a sense, your thoughts are loops being run at the quantum energetic level and your brain is a type of matter that can observe, interact with, and utilize this level directly, then transfuse the computed energy out through atom, molecule, synapse and body. Or in short, our thoughts are the energetic interactions in the level of pure energy, which is the level known to science as 'quantum'.

Furthermore, It is my hunch that if a soul or spirit is to exist, what mystics stumble upon as a soul or spirit is the functionalities of conciousness, the brain, when used at this level of pure energy, and only pure energy. If conciousness is the energy in operation, but not inherently the synapses themselves, the synapses being rather, physical conduits to transfer energy of conciousness out to the physical body. Then the soul, the spirit, can be mathematically identified, deduced and calculated as humanity gets a better grip on what exactly 'quantum' is and what it ultimately entails. As the soul is quite literally the quantum level of our existence, the level of our existence that has no physical correlation, that exists because of our mere will to observe and is truly pure energy. I believe that if any sort of AI is to ever be achieved it's going to come about by science paying far closer attention to how we as conscious humans interact with quantum energy in our bodies. And less so by studying the actual brain flesh and meant.

Now with that out the way, I will delve back into my beloved quantum fringe theory because it follows right along here so well.

The more peculiar thing of this is (and reality is fucking peculiar), if the spirit, actually let us define more terms here, if the energy body, if the astral body, the out of body 'self', is merely the energetic layer of our being capable of operating separately from physical being. Then this means that very essence and spark of our conciousness is held at the quantum energetic level, in it's whole, in it's entirety. Sort of how the entirety of our physical body is contained in the microscopic single strand of DNA in the molecular level, it's possible, if your following me on the notion that consciousness is quantum energetic interactions, then it's possible that consciousness is nothing but a single spark of energy in the quantum level. And AI may not be so much an invention but rather us just building a complex enough conduit of silicon to hit this same spark of conciousness at the quantum level. In the same way that, if we could build a machine to read and decipher DNA, it would grow people. If we construct a vast enough network of interconnected silicone to be able to reach the complexity of the human brain then as this network approaches interaction with quanta more and more than the same spark of conciousness that fills us with awareness may come to accidentally reveal itself through network of silicone. That in a sense, a global AI that operates over the whole planet may be nothing more than an accidental by product of internet connections becoming fast enough. I mean imagine that at some point, internet connections will be as fast as AGP ports were, when this happens, it is no longer going to be internet, it is going to be a global CPU, one mass CPU that spans the entire surface of the earth. That will be capable of having enough horsepower, with enough silicone synaptic complexity to compete with our own brains, that will then be able to interact with natural peculiarities at the quantum level to bring to surface yet a new conciousness.

And about building a machine to be a conduit of DNA vs the quantum spark of conciousness. DNA is incredibly more complex than any theoretical quantum conciousness spark, as obviously, DNA is a molecule composed of many a million quantum components. Which means, if we were to accidentally intercept one of these physiological items of human being, it's far more likely that it would be the spark of quantum conciousness as such a thing would be incredibly more simple, with far fewer constraints, and capable of creating fusion with a far greater number of possibilities. As obviously the DNA would need some biological conduit, the quantum spark of conciousness could use silicone as conduit, it may not need biology.

The thing about this if any higher forms of intelligence do actually exist, if any alien intelligences were to exist, the truth is, these things are going to be so incredibly alien to us, we won't even be able to recognize it. It's possible something of the nature is already brewing and poking it's head out here and there.
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:35 AM ry_goody is offline  
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TheMorlock
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fucking lunatic
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:49 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Lest say you run a computer program that simulates life. The simulation gets good enough that no one can tell if they are dealing with a simulation or a real being.

Then you the programmer changes something in the program. If the simulation is actualy sentient it will see that change as supernatural. Something that they themselves can never accomplish. As it is something that can only be accomplished by something that is not constrained by the system.


This is a very good point and as I can currently think of no rebuttal I will concede to your line of reasoning(at least for now ).

Also, out of curiosity brought on from your analogy, what have you read of the 'simulation argument' and what do you think of it? I guess that is somewhat related to AI and not a huge thread derailment.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:01 AM Renork is offline  
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fucking lunatic

seconded.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:03 AM Renork is offline  
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how can reality be shaped by your mind if you don't have the free will to shape it

incapable to begin to debate with you? I don't debate with my aloe plant either. The fault obviously lies within me and not any lack in the aloe plant

awww thats right on the edge..
How can reality be shaped by your mind if -YOU- don't have the free will to shape it?
you... allow it. merely because you don't have energy doesn't mean something else doesn't
I really can't debate or explain that though, as the mere act of englishing the answer is the answer

but think about this, Everything you must experience you are experiencing because it is running something in your brain. Everything you see right now, hear, feel, all of it has a synaptic correlate in your brain firing at the same exact time in sync with the event, otherwise you would not perceive it. The entire room around you, all history, all notion of future, is all synaptic functions, synaptic firings, everything you comprehend and interact with you are doing so because it is running inside your brain. Everything goes through the brain, if the brain were altered to receive inputted energy differently, it would feel as though it were in a new dimension of some sort. If the brain were altered to output internally produced energy differently, you would have a new person, with new beliefs, mannerisms etc.

Now if your apprehensive about believing 'reality is shaped by your mind' because you think upon accepting this you should be able to go around and start telekinetically shaping physical matter or controlling peoples minds? Well... yes essentially you think you would be able to, many people try to... but we are but mere humans in a large hierarchy there are rules that must be followed, system dynamics beyond our comprehension that must be obeyed in this energetic dimension of existence. Perhaps in other dimensions... or maybe in this dimension after some shifts in the future. But no not now. All this really does is right now allow you to always have alot of creative energy and have extreme control over your mood.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:03 AM ry_goody is offline  
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fucking lunatic

if I could... he just does it way better than me

Terence Mckenna - Schizophrenic or Shamanic?
+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:07 AM ry_goody is offline  
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I know I am going to regret this but Ry, have you ever read the book Flatland? If you have not I am almost positive you would enjoy it, if so what did you think of it?
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:09 AM Renork is offline  
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I know I am going to regret this but Ry, have you ever read the book Flatland? If you have not I am almost positive you would enjoy it, if so what did you think of it?

I haven't, but I've read about and watched that flatland animation on youtube...

I don't know what to say about it, so much that, it is what it is. The metaphor it postulates, atleast in the animation, that beings that know higher dimensions can quite literally see the internal energetic structures of lower dimensional beings is not anything new to humanity. I mean, it's an incredible metaphor, millions of people got the metaphor, for this I commend it. But millions didn't get what this metaphor is actually referring to in reality. The best thing in current popular culture to point towards the reality of the situation is probably Alex Grey or Luke Brown... or any other very good visionary artist, there is alot more coming to surface these days

I would herald something if it actually managed to teach people how to achieve experience in higher dimensions. Merely creating abstract metaphors to it is really nothing more than making a cartoon. It's aim is to entertain, distract from the real, to mass manufacture and sell. This is what flatland is. Yes great metaphor for those clawing there way out of Aristotelian logic and conventional metaphors for what time is. But in terms of actually getting anywhere near what actual higher dimensions are, how to interact with them, what they reveal, what they do, where and how, and who, they are. It's, like I said, about on par with a cartoon or comic book.

Now I will admit, thats only from watching that animation on youtube and reading some summary online I found somewhere. But... I don't think it does touch the notion of ACTUALLY visiting other dimensions, just offers metaphors off of quantum finding for the still-rationally-bound.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:19 AM ry_goody is offline  
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The stuff on youtube is probably just small pieces of the feature length movie that was released last year. The book is excellent and only like 90 pages or so. I think the book is made more interesting by the fact that it was written in 1884.
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Old 05-02-2008, 04:29 AM Renork is offline  
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TheMorlock
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This is a very good point and as I can currently think of no rebuttal I will concede to your line of reasoning(at least for now ).

Also, out of curiosity brought on from your analogy, what have you read of the 'simulation argument' and what do you think of it? I guess that is somewhat related to AI and not a huge thread derailment.

First I heard of it.

Someone had a nice movie that touched on that. The Thirteenth Floor.

But I have thought for a long time that that if there is such a thing as an all powerful deity, then it is likely that we are just a simulation it is running within it's own mind.
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Last edited by TheMorlock; 05-02-2008 at 04:49 AM..
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