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bobsmith
 
We could use more Right to Work states, that's for sure. It's one way to partially address the issues that Pope raised.
Old 01-05-2008, 05:30 PM bobsmith is offline  
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Xayd
 
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yet again i have no response to the obvious challenge of my assumptions. here, let me attempt to derail with vaguery
Old 01-05-2008, 05:41 PM Xayd is offline  
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TheMorlock
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fucking pinhead. Learn to read much?
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Old 01-05-2008, 05:42 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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I personally think they're necessary, but the problem is there's not a good enough system of checks and balances in place to ensure things run smoothly. In the past, the corporation at too much power to exploit the worker, which is why unions were developed in the first place. In the present, unions have the power to paralyze a corporation, often not in the interest of their employees since strikes might cripple a corporation into submission (this has happened several times).

With the lack of job security in this day and age, the amount of outsourcing going on, things like that, it's good to have some power for the worker. There's too many cases of people leaving work on Friday only to return on Monday and be told they have 15 minutes to leave. However, there are equally too many cases of unions protecting incompotence, in some cases endangering other union employees ironically enough, which needs to be dealt with.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:16 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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BuGaLoU
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
I personally think they're necessary, but the problem is there's not a good enough system of checks and balances in place to ensure things run smoothly. In the past, the corporation at too much power to exploit the worker, which is why unions were developed in the first place. In the present, unions have the power to paralyze a corporation, often not in the interest of their employees since strikes might cripple a corporation into submission (this has happened several times).

With the lack of job security in this day and age, the amount of outsourcing going on, things like that, it's good to have some power for the worker. There's too many cases of people leaving work on Friday only to return on Monday and be told they have 15 minutes to leave. However, there are equally too many cases of unions protecting incompotence, in some cases endangering other union employees ironically enough, which needs to be dealt with.

I don't know. To me that is the nature of business and if you truly excel at what you do you will never be on one of those lists. If my work fired me Monday I would laugh do to all the "only I know" type things they will run into whithin a week. My boss and his boss are completely aware of this and thus I am pretty secure in my careerer.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:23 PM BuGaLoU is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
I personally think they're necessary, but the problem is there's not a good enough system of checks and balances in place to ensure things run smoothly. In the past, the corporation at too much power to exploit the worker, which is why unions were developed in the first place. In the present, unions have the power to paralyze a corporation, often not in the interest of their employees since strikes might cripple a corporation into submission (this has happened several times).

With the lack of job security in this day and age, the amount of outsourcing going on, things like that, it's good to have some power for the worker. There's too many cases of people leaving work on Friday only to return on Monday and be told they have 15 minutes to leave. However, there are equally too many cases of unions protecting incompotence, in some cases endangering other union employees ironically enough, which needs to be dealt with.


sigh outsorcing is caused by fucked up uinion wage scales.
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:45 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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That German Guy
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We have state civil departments that take care of that. It's called the Labor board/department of labor.

You take your complaint to them and the STATE carries out the court battle.

A typical union strike over here is steel workers making over 100,000 a year striking because there is not a 6 year guarentee of a job in the contract.(real example)

Then the way your unions work is just too different from ours for me to be of use in this discussion *shrug*

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Old 01-06-2008, 02:10 AM That German Guy is offline  
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MisterKinish
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Nay.
Old 01-06-2008, 02:19 AM MisterKinish is offline  
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#23  

PopeKevinI
 
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sigh outsorcing is caused by fucked up uinion wage scales.

I've never seen such a complex issue condensed so ineffectively

What about IT outsourcing? We don't have unions.
Old 01-06-2008, 05:17 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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#24  

1337rider
 
the union I'm in at the local plywood mill is shit. they take 80/month from a part time college worker that maybe gets 16 hours a week in, and won't give it back without huge efforts on my part to prove I only work full time. and Ihave to do this every month. (I think when I get a 32 dollar check for 2 shifts of work I'm getting fucked)
I also get my dad's perspective as a plant supervisor, basicly every time he attempts to move production attention to certain products, it requires people todo other jobs, and every time, some union troll begins snivling about a claus saying union employees can only work on the job they bid. Other things are a problem, but I'm headed to work now, as a matter of fact.
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Old 01-06-2008, 05:35 AM 1337rider is offline  
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TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post
I've never seen such a complex issue condensed so ineffectively

What about IT outsourcing? We don't have unions.

dont be a troll

h1b visa's would never have been approved if half assed software wanabees did not have 50 dollar an hour steel workers(push a button when the machine says its hot) inflating what they are worth


Get a grip
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:50 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#26  

Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by BuGaLoU View Post
I don't know. To me that is the nature of business and if you truly excel at what you do you will never be on one of those lists. If my work fired me Monday I would laugh do to all the "only I know" type things they will run into whithin a week. My boss and his boss are completely aware of this and thus I am pretty secure in my careerer.

You'd like to think so, eh?

My buddy was working for Husky injection molding. They fired their top engineer because he disagreed with the owner on a certain program (and it turns out the engineer was right, good job Husky). They don't just "trim the fat" and get rid of useless personnel during layoff sessions. Yes, there are some ultra-essentials they will keep, but believe me, a lot of the people you perceive as ultra-essential are disposable in the eyes of the bean-counters that don't deserve to be making the decisions they are entrusted with.

There's also other things to consider. Sometimes a company wants to trim to a certain number of personnel. When I worked for Honeywell they had a layoff session even though they were already short of staff, simply because the boss told them to do it. A lot of the people in upper management don't deserve to be there.

At least in the case of a labour union the worker can protest this kind of action. As I said, the problem arises today because the unions have the balance of power swung unfairly in their favour (see Canadian Auto Workers for further questions).
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:48 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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sigh outsorcing is caused by fucked up uinion wage scales.

At non-unionized corporations, as well?

Outsourcing is not caused simply by union wage scales, it's the difference in cost of living in diffierent countries that leads to this practice. You can hire six Indian engineers who are equally qualified to the one American engineer you already employ for the same price. You think this is due to unions, or the fact that the costs of living in India are significantly lower?

Yes, unions negotiate some retarded salaries (again, CAW is the perfect example of this) for minimal work, but they're not the main reason for outsourcing.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:51 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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cromicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PopeKevinI View Post
I've never seen such a complex issue condensed so ineffectively
Why do you think businesses will go to all the trouble, added expense and increased risk of setting up operations overseas, building new plants, hiring people who don't speak your language, doing business in countries without any private property rights at all, loading the goods onto a boat and shipping them across the ocean, paying the import taxes, offloading them onto trucks (after having paid for all that, you're now at the same point as if you had operated a plant in the homeland), and ending up with a potentially inferior and unsafe product? Maybe it's because it's actually cheaper to do all of that than incur the production costs locally. Why are the production costs expensive here but not there? Maybe unions have something to do with that.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:16 AM cromicus is offline  
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#29  

PopeKevinI
 
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Why do you think businesses will go to all the trouble, added expense and increased risk of setting up operations overseas, building new plants, hiring people who don't speak your language, doing business in countries without any private property rights at all, loading the goods onto a boat and shipping them across the ocean, paying the import taxes, offloading them onto trucks (after having paid for all that, you're now at the same point as if you had operated a plant in the homeland), and ending up with a potentially inferior and unsafe product? Maybe it's because it's actually cheaper to do all of that than incur the production costs locally. Why are the production costs expensive here but not there? Maybe unions have something to do with that.

And if you think unions are the only thing driving the cost of production up, you don't know how business works.

Land is cheaper there. Taxes are lower there. Cost of living is lower there, so wages would be lower even if there were local unions.

Look at India. It's already losing its appeal as an outsourcing destination because the cost of living is skyrocketing and the cities are modernizing their infrastructure, which requires tax dollars. The lack of local unions has very little impact on whether companies want to set up shop there...the fact is, in the near future India is going to be too expensive to use for manufacturing because it's becoming more expensive. China will likely be next on that list.

Remember when "made in Japan" meant it was cheap goods made by cheap labor?
Old 01-06-2008, 10:26 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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