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I act tough on genmay, but real life im a pussy
cromicus's Avatar
Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
and he argued it while riding around in a horse and cart, and took shits in a bucket under a wooden shelf with a hole in it.

save your economic nostalgia for those short-lived ron paul threads.
It's just what he said, I didn't say that it was right or wrong.
you shall see hail fall from a clear sky
Old 01-21-2008, 10:10 AM cromicus is offline  
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
So because someone's making more money we should take more from them? Why?

No. They get the same 25k credit. Its a matter of need. the 25k earner needs their 2.5k more than the 100k owner needs his 10k.
Im not elitist, Ive simply been marginalized by the preponderance of idiots in the world.
Old 01-21-2008, 12:48 PM Nano is offline  
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Obviously, but the idea that somehow the government should have the right to take more for them based on that is not justifiable. Everyone should be paying in their fair share. 35% for $100k + and 15% for $30k (not real numbers, just creating a contrast) does not constitute fair share regardless of the value of a dollar.

Thats not what im advocating. Im advocating a 10% flat tax, with a 25k barrier to entry.

What about people in higher cost of living areas? Ft. McMurray, Alberta is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive to live in than St. John, New Brunswick, so where's your adjustment to account for that? Someone making $45k annually in Edmonton is not going to see the same kind of lifestyle as someone making $45k annually in Halifax. Where's the adjustment made in that case?

There isnt one. If you want to live in a luxury area that costs you more, do so. If you want to live in a less affluent area where your money goes farther, do so. Theres no reason to adjust taxation for cost of living.
Im not elitist, Ive simply been marginalized by the preponderance of idiots in the world.
Old 01-21-2008, 12:50 PM Nano is offline  
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Originally Posted by Nano View Post
No. They get the same 25k credit. Its a matter of need. the 25k earner needs their 2.5k more than the 100k owner needs his 10k.

So you already acknowledge that the utility of a dollar is not fixed. Therefore, a progressive tax is still perfectly fair. All dollars earned in a certain bracket are deemed to have x utility and therefore have a tax of y percent. All dollars earned in the next bracket have a lower utility and therefore a higher tax.

Something to keep in mind, which some people don't, is that a higher tax bracket only kicks in on dollars made above a certain amount. It's not like if you make $1 more than the 25% limit that you pay 25% on everything; you only pay 25% on that $1 and 15% on the rest (basically).
Old 01-21-2008, 01:04 PM mathlete is offline  
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Originally Posted by cromicus View Post
Adam Smith argued only luxury and land-rent taxes, not income taxes. He thought that customs and income taxes were too expensive to collect, invaded privacy and served as a disincentive to trade.

"In all cases, a direct tax upon the wages of labour must, in the long run, occasion both a greater reduction in the rent of land, and a greater rise in the price of manufactured goods, than would have followed from a proper assessment of a sum equal to the produce of the tax, partly upon the rent of land, and partly upon consumable comodities." (Book V)

He still realized the principle behind progressive taxation was correct, whether levied on income or by some other means. What you are saying does nothing to diminish this.
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Old 01-21-2008, 01:11 PM rizla is offline  
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Mathlete, Riz, Cromicus and others, Ive come to respect your individual understanding of economics (yes I really do mean that) and would like your and everyones takes on this article.

My only note would be that please keep in mind that the Clintons and the Bushs as well as many "front runner" (lol) media darling candidates including Obama are CFR, whose stated goal is to reduce the US especially economically and support a one world government. If you dont really understand the CFR please research it just a little bit because to overlook them in context of this article is to miss a vital aspect of it that otherwise is easily overlooked.


The Coming Global Depression


Lee Rogers

The global economic situation looks increasingly bad as we face a certain global depression primarily due to the insane monetary policies of the central bankers.

The Federal Reserve is now attempting to bail out failing financial institutions by creating more money out of thin air. Some of the big banks are reporting losses greater than the assets they have on the books. Foreigners are also coming in and are buying up this nation’s infrastructure. It is a complete disaster.

Amazingly, the Federal Reserve is indicating that they are likely to reduce interest rates again which will cause further value destruction of the U.S. Dollar. This combined with Bush’s so called economic stimulus package are phony solutions that will do nothing to stave off the coming economic calamity. In fact, the Federal Reserve is doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing if they sought a long term solution. A long term solution would involve strengthening the U.S. Dollar with a sound monetary policy.

By devaluing the U.S. Dollar they are robbing the average American blind and most don’t even realize it. Much like the Great Depression, the international bankers are now preparing to consolidate more wealth through these irrational policies as an excuse to bring in regional currencies and regional governmental bodies. As a result, we remain bullish on gold, silver and other sound financial instruments in light of this economic tyranny. Expect short term volatility but in the long term expect gold, silver and commodities to rise in U.S. Dollar denominations.

The U.S. Dollar as the world's reserve currency has now been called an experiment and a historical anomaly by the Council on Foreign Relations. This is an accurate assessment as never before in the history of man have we had a reserve currency on a global scale with no backing.

A hundred years ago, it was inconceivable that a monetary system could exist without gold or silver, now many economists can’t conceive of a monetary system with gold and silver. It is literal madness, but that mindset might be changing. Currently, the U.S. Dollar and the Euro are competing for the status as the world’s reserve currency despite the fact that neither monetary unit has any backing. The economic elites are now pondering bringing back gold to play a role in the global economy. The Council on Foreign Relations has economists openly discussing this possibility as the experiment in paper money continues to unravel. This is a bullish sign for precious metals considering the influence that this group has with the establishment.

A symptom of the monetary problems could be clearly seen today with the London FTSE crashing 5.5 percent, France’s CAC-40 Index declined 6.8 percent, German’s DAX 30 plunged 7.2 percent, Hong Kong’s Hang Seng index plummeted 5.5 percent and Canada’s Toronto Stock Exchange went down 4 percent. This is a sign that the global market does not buy into the phony short term fixes that Bush’s economic stimulus and the Federal Reserve’s rate cuts represent. The U.S. stock market was closed for the holidays today but there are estimates floating around that we could see losses upwards of 500 and even 1,000 points in the Dow Jones Industrial Average tomorrow. That may or may not happen depending on if the President’s Working Group on Financial Markets decides to step in and interfere with the market. This group which is more commonly referred to as the Plunge Protection Team operates in a very secretive fashion and has a mandate of making sure the economy remains stable. Another words, they interfere in the market in order to make the numbers look good for the average American. The government manipulates the stock market which is contrary to all free market principles.

Recently, gold and silver have gone down on days that most would normally expect them to do well. This happened again today after a huge plunge in the global financial markets. This is because the precious metals markets are manipulated by the central bankers in order to disguise what is actually happening. If gold went up $30-$40 on a day like today it would draw attention to the fact that gold serves as a hedge against collapsing financial markets. This is why they manipulate the gold price down on days when precious metals would typically do well. The manipulation game is nothing new though. Central bankers for many years have consistently dumped gold into the market in order to artificially suppress its price. In fact, this precious metals bull market has been largely suppressed by the powers that be so they can more easily manage a slow decline of the U.S. Dollar without alarming too many people. A sudden collapse would create alarm and could in fact hurt the establishment insiders, so a slow managed decline of the U.S. Dollar and a slow rise in precious metals is preferable for them.

Even the propagandists in the media are being forced to admit that we are in a recession despite the fact that we’ve been in one for quite sometime now. For awhile now, they have asked if we are entering a recession instead of admitting that we’ve been in one. Now the reality is becoming so clear that some are saying that we are facing the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.

It is really quite amazing that the media has blacklisted coverage on Ron Paul’s presidential campaign when he is the only one providing solutions to this economic crisis that we find ourselves in. Obviously, the powers that be in the media aren’t interested in resolving these problems because it matters not to them if the economy crashes. They are monopoly men that seek consolidating wealth and power. They did this in the Great Depression by contracting the available money supply and through the seizure of the American people’s gold. It looks as if they are on the track to do it again but this time they will do it by destroying the value of the U.S. Dollar through mass amounts of inflation.

Clearly, things do not look good as a global depression is a very likely possibility. Gold should easily reach $1,000 an ounce and beyond this year and we should also see silver hit $20 an ounce by year’s end. Keep in mind that these are conservative estimates. On a long term basis the U.S. Dollar is heading further into the toilet simply because we have insane people creating money out of nothing who think they can solve the existing problem by creating even more money.

It is mass insanity on a large scale and the more they do this, the more attractive gold and silver becomes. Don't expect Bush's stimulus package of tax rebates to help matters. If Bush really wanted to stimulate the economy to have a lasting effect, he'd call for the abolishment of the IRS and the federal income tax. He'd also call for the elimination of the Federal Reserve System and a return to an honest monetary system. This phony solution is nothing more than smoke and mirrors designed to pacify the American people into thinking that the government is doing something to fix the problem.

Buy gold, buy silver, buy storable foods, buy ammunition, buy firearms and buy survival equipment. Those are the best long term investments at this point in time and whatever you do, do not trust what the establishment corporate controlled media or the government says. These people have proven time and time again that they are chronic liars and propagandists.
"It's a jungle here--right now we're advising our clients to put all they can into canned goods and shotguns!"

--- Brain Gremlin in the movie Gremlins II: The New Batch.

Discordian Resistance Front, Co. A, Semi-Conscious Liberation Army.

Last edited by Free_Willy; 01-21-2008 at 08:12 PM..
Old 01-21-2008, 08:08 PM Free_Willy is offline  
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