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UnknownWanderer
 
I don't see it as a last resort of defense, I see it as a first. And so does the military, for that matter. If someone ever attacked the American homeland with troops and ships and bombers, we'd drop the bomb right away. We wouldn't wait for the whole place to get wrecked before doing it.

(My dad, a colonel in the AF, told a Chilean military general the same thing when he attended the war college in Santiago. They asked him what he would do if Peru and Bolivia attacked, and while the general expected some sort of strategic maneuvering , my dad just said "drop the bomb")
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:50 PM UnknownWanderer is offline  
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welk
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Chernobyl was a poorly designed nuclear reactor, not a nuclear weapon.
Yes i know. I used it as an example of how bad radiation effects can be. A huge are still out of bounds, a nuclear material possibly contaminating the water table, ghost town were people won't return for decades at best, and other areas they won't return to for hundreds of years.

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The cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki have hundreds of thousands of people living there today.
They were very small by today's standard, yet there were still 450 cancer deaths attributable to radiation at hiroshima alone (and thats just the deaths, many got cancer but survived). Cancers attributable to radiation are still occurring among atomic-bomb survivors

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Modern nuclear weapons have very little long term radiation, especially if it's an airburst. Besides there has already been hundred of nuclear tests worldwide and you'll still get more background radiation from minute amounts of radon leaking out of the ground then the aftereffects of nuclear weapons.
I don't really believe that, but i'm sure its what the military would say. In a report by the National Cancer Institute, released in 1997, it was determined that ninety atmospheric tests at the Nevada Test Site deposited high levels of radioactive iodine-131 (5.5 exabecquerels) across a large portion of the contiguous United States, especially in the years 1952, 1953, 1955, and 1957—doses large enough, they determined, to produce 10,000 to 75,000 cases of thyroid cancer. In 1993, residents living near the Nevada Test Site were included in the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act, 1,375 claims were honored (1,121 were denied).

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Far more people died in conventional firebombings then with nuclear weapons. There was single nights of firebombing Tokyo that produced more casualties.
Yes that's what i said in my post "However even if they had stepped up the pressure by conventional bombing, this may have killed just as many people."

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Aside from a massive attack with dozens or more nuclear weapons I don't think there's any justification for nuking an entire city. Now if it's a remote military base or hardenend bunker of some sort that can only be taken out by a tactical nuclear weapon that's different. I don't see much need for that since we have conventional weapons now that reach into the sub kiloton range. But if the base was the site of production or imminent launch for weapons of mass destruction I could see the use of a tactical nuclear weapon. Unless we have WW3 I don't think there will ever be a justifiable use for strategic nuclear weapons.
Don't you see the irony in suggesting its ok to use nukes against sites producing WMD? You're saying its ok for us to use them, but not anyone else.
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Old 05-01-2005, 01:54 PM welk is offline  
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auction1
 
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Originally Posted by welk
Don't you see the irony in suggesting its ok to use nukes against sites producing WMD? You're saying its ok for us to use them, but not anyone else.
Good, bad, ironic, we're the ones with the most capable nuclear arsenal on the planet. Fortunately for everyone life isn't fair. Fortunately for us we were the first to get a working A-bomb.

Why do I say fortunately for everyone? Because if everyone had had nukes in WWII we wouldn't be having this discussion, we'd all be dead.
Old 05-01-2005, 02:08 PM auction1 is offline  
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welk
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Originally Posted by Kueller
Good, bad, ironic, we're the ones with the most capable nuclear arsenal on the planet. Fortunately for everyone life isn't fair. Fortunately for us we were the first to get a working A-bomb.

Why do I say fortunately for everyone? Because if everyone had had nukes in WWII we wouldn't be having this discussion, we'd all be dead.

Any use of nukes will just encourage other countries to copy you. And no we would not all be dead if other countries had developed nukes in ww2. It unlikely anyone would have been able to produce more than a couple. The outcome of the war would probably still be the same.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:16 PM welk is offline  
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Morally? Never.

But science and politics were never about morals...
Old 05-01-2005, 02:22 PM lagomorph is offline  
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auction1
 
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Originally Posted by :ninja:
The war was almost over before we dropped the bombs. Many historians argue that the war would have ended very soon even if we had not nuked them.


Why are Japanese lives less valuable than American lives?


Fucking jarhead dumbshit.
Japanese lives were less valuable than American lives at the time because they tried to kill us first.

If I came into your house one night and killed your wife and daughter with my knife and you then found a gun would you fight me hand to hand for your life, or would you shoot me and be done with it? I'd shoot me. Maybe you'd prefer I slice you up a bit, take off a few fingers, maybe an ear before I get so tired I give up fighting.
Old 05-01-2005, 02:23 PM auction1 is offline  
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auction1
 
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Originally Posted by welk
Any use of nukes will just encourage other countries to copy you. And no we would not all be dead if other countries had developed nukes in ww2. It unlikely anyone would have been able to produce more than a couple. The outcome of the war would probably still be the same.
So, japan gets a couple, italy gets a couple, germany gets a couple, britain gets a couple, france gets a couple, russia gets a couple, we get a couple, poland gets a couple, china gets a couple, finland, estonia, latvia, lithuania, romania, netherlands, belgium, norway, denmark each get 1.

I'm up to 27 nukes so far and I'm sure I missed some countries. You're right, you'd be fine, as long as you lived on a self-sustaining farm.
Old 05-01-2005, 02:35 PM auction1 is offline  
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Originally Posted by Kueller
Japanese lives were less valuable than American lives at the time because they tried to kill us first.

If I came into your house one night and killed your wife and daughter with my knife and you then found a gun would you fight me hand to hand for your life, or would you shoot me and be done with it? I'd shoot me. Maybe you'd prefer I slice you up a bit, take off a few fingers, maybe an ear before I get so tired I give up fighting.


sorry, Cilivians didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.


Your example was cute, though try again.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:40 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by [H]eadupMyAss
of course it was justified in WW2 there is and never will be any remorse for what happened at pearl harbor,

also what would you rather have had a 100,000 dead japenese from a nuke or 100,000 more dead americans from invading the mainland?

Probably more Japanese casualties as well. Propoganda machine was doing a good job of encouraging suicide attacks to protect the mainland.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:42 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by welk
Nothing would ever justify the use of nukes again. They don't just kill millions of people, they also pollute the entire planet (look what chernobyl did, and that was just an accident).

Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion, it was a core meltdown. It's impossible for a nuclear reactor to explode like an atomic bomb since it does not have the critical mass required for a self-sustaining chain reaction.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:45 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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HybridPyro
 
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Originally Posted by :ninja:
sorry, Cilivians didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.


Your example was cute, though try again.
And your example was pure genius. The Japanese were not about the quit, they wouldn't have just given up.
Old 05-01-2005, 02:45 PM HybridPyro is offline  
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Originally Posted by Nano
Nothing.

Ever.

Including japan.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:46 PM Straw Man is offline  
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welk
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky
Chernobyl was not a nuclear explosion, it was a core meltdown. It's impossible for a nuclear reactor to explode like an atomic bomb since it does not have the critical mass required for a self-sustaining chain reaction.

The IAEA notes that, while the Chernobyl accident released as much as 400 times the radioactive contamination of the Hiroshima bomb, it was 100 to 1000 times less than the contamination caused by atmospheric nuclear weapons testing in the mid-20th century.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:48 PM welk is offline  
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Originally Posted by HybridPyro
And your example was pure genius. The Japanese were not about the quit, they wouldn't have just given up.


Many historians would like to disagree with you on that one.

But I suppose we will never really know.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:49 PM :ninja: is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by :ninja:
The war was almost over before we dropped the bombs. Many historians argue that the war would have ended very soon even if we had not nuked them.

But it took a few days even after two of their major industrial centres were levelled by a single bomb.


Don't underestimate the fighting spirit of the Japanese. You have to keep in mind they had faced those kinds of odds before with the Mongols, where a storm washed the Mongolian fleet away two or three times (believe to be due to the divine wind, or Kamikazee). This instilled a feeling of invulnerability in many. Don't think they were ready to give up if they had no real reason to. The TWO atomic bombs dropped THREE days apart gave them that reason. If they were ready to surrender, they would have done so after the first bomb.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:50 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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