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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by welk
The IAEA notes that, while the Chernobyl accident released as much as 400 times the radioactive contamination of the Hiroshima bomb, it was 100 to 1000 times less than the contamination caused by atmospheric nuclear weapons testing in the mid-20th century.

k...
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:51 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Let's not forget that nuclear weapons don't even have to be used anymore. How? Intimidation will make someone think twice before making a move. For example, I guarantee you Kim Jong Il wont launch a Dong missile at the US as long as he knows his country will be turned into a sheet of glass by two Trident submarines he doesn't have the means to counter. In a way it will open doors to more diplomatic solutions since both sides know they'll lose if they try to slug it out with nuclear arsenals. Very few will be willing to take the first shot in a nuclear conflict in the same way very few are willing to throw the first punch in a school yard fight, choosing instead to push eachother for a while to see if the other will submit without further issue.
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Old 05-01-2005, 02:55 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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auction1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja:
sorry, Cilivians didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.


Your example was cute, though try again.
As I understand it there wasn't much of a difference in mindset between japanese "civilians" and japanese military at the time. Everyone was doing their part in the war effort, they just didn't have the materiel to equip every person with a gun and ferry them across the ocean.

And you never did say whether you'd let me slice you into little ninja-pieces or shoot me...
Old 05-01-2005, 03:00 PM auction1 is offline  
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welk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kueller
So, japan gets a couple, italy gets a couple, germany gets a couple, britain gets a couple, france gets a couple, russia gets a couple, we get a couple, poland gets a couple, china gets a couple, finland, estonia, latvia, lithuania, romania, netherlands, belgium, norway, denmark each get 1.

I'm up to 27 nukes so far and I'm sure I missed some countries. You're right, you'd be fine, as long as you lived on a self-sustaining farm.

Most of those countires simply didn't have the associated technology to produce nukes. France, netherland etc etc were already occupied before the science was even there to produce them. Countries that could have produced nukes in ww2 were germany, russia and possibly japan.

Anyway even 27 hiroshima sized bombs wouldn't do much on a global scale. The global radiation wouldn't even be 1000th of the amount released by later tests.
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:02 PM welk is offline  
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#34  

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The existance of nuclear weapons alone are a deterant from doing anything that would warrant their use. The bombs that were dropped on Japan remain the only two nuclear weapons to ever be fired in combat. They had to be used on a hostile force at least once to demonstrate their incredible destructive power.

I don't think that the long-term effects of radiation were fully understood back then, but even if they were, consider the thinking: Japan was the enemy. They attacked Pearl Harbour unprovoked and were killing our soldiers. Fuck it if radiation will linger for years, they're the enemy. Long-term thinking plays no part in a war where you fight for the survival of your country, you're just happy to come out alive.

I'm not sure about the justifications today. Obviously they're a retalitory weapon, but who's stupid enough to use one first? If Russia attacked with nuclear weapons, then the ensuring exchange of firepower would essentially destroy earth. Tactical deployment of nuclear weapons? Depending on the fallout, I don't really see a problem, although the employment of 'bunker-buster' style ordinance would probably be better for the PR side of things.
Old 05-01-2005, 03:19 PM Pyrogenesis is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja:
sorry, Cilivians didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.


Your example was cute, though try again.

dude your a fucking idiot really get a clue, the -populations of hiroshima and nagasake were very legitament military targets to be wiped out along with the population, they were both japans biggest industrial centers supporting the japanese war machine

THOSE CIVILIANS BUILT THE PLANES AND EQUIPMENT THAT BOMBED PEARL HARBOR THAT MEANS THEY DID HELP BOMB IT!

it does not matter if those people did not support the war or was forced to work in those factories, its a shame it had to be done but those 2 industrial centers had to be taken out, just because 100,000 japanese civilians would die does not mean we should not have bombed it so they could keep pumping out ships, airplanes guns and ammunition that would be used to kill americans and make the war longer

Last edited by [H]eadup; 05-01-2005 at 03:33 PM..
Old 05-01-2005, 03:28 PM [H]eadup is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [H]eadupMyAss
dude your a fucking idiot really get a clue, the -populations of hiroshima and nagasake were very legitament military targets to be wiped out along with the population, they were both japans biggest industrial centers supporting the japanese war machine

[SIZE=]THOSE CIVILIANS BUILT THE PLANES AND EQUIPMENT THAT BOMBED PEARL HARBOR THAT MEANS THEY DID HELP BOMB IT! [/SIZE]


s7=b7
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:32 PM welk is offline  
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#37  

yoda634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nano
Nothing.

Ever.

Including japan.

QFT. The effects of nuclear weapons are too indiscriminate and horrific for use by anyone in any instance.
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:44 PM yoda634 is offline  
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*quotes Nano*

you fucking commie liberal swede
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Old 05-01-2005, 03:48 PM ManSandwichMayo is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja:
sorry, Cilivians didn't bomb Pearl Harbor.


Your example was cute, though try again.
Nagaski was the munition center for the Japanese war machine whereas Hiroshima was the Naval Construction Yard which had produced alot of the Carriers of the Japanese Fleet, the Yamato and not-finished sister ships, hundreds of destroyers and cruisers, etc..
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Old 05-01-2005, 04:48 PM ViriiK is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoda634
QFT. The effects of nuclear weapons are too indiscriminate and horrific for use by anyone in any instance.
Ah yes.. 5+ Million committing mass sepuku for the Emperor including an estimated 50% loss of Allied losses in the invasion of Japan sure is better than the other option..

There are other bombings that did the same scale of destruction such as the British-planned firebombing of Dresden.. Or the firebombing of other cities in Japan..
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Last edited by ViriiK; 05-01-2005 at 04:55 PM..
Old 05-01-2005, 04:49 PM ViriiK is offline  
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#41  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by welk
Yes i know. I used it as an example of how bad radiation effects can be. A huge are still out of bounds, a nuclear material possibly contaminating the water table, ghost town were people won't return for decades at best, and other areas they won't return to for hundreds of years.

Yes that's how bad they can be, but with out modern nuclear weapons the radiation effects would be much shorter lived. With Neutron bombs there's essentially no radiation a few days later.


Quote:

They were very small by today's standard, yet there were still 450 cancer deaths attributable to radiation at hiroshima alone (and thats just the deaths, many got cancer but survived). Cancers attributable to radiation are still occurring among atomic-bomb survivors
How many people born a few years later in Hiroshima or Nagasaki developed cancer? I'm sure it's higher then the average but it's not like people can't live there anymore like Chernobyl.

Quote:

I don't really believe that, but i'm sure its what the military would say. In a report by the National Cancer Institute, released in 1997, it was determined that ninety atmospheric tests at the Nevada Test Site deposited high levels of radioactive iodine-131 (5.5 exabecquerels) across a large portion of the contiguous United States, especially in the years 1952, 1953, 1955, and 1957—doses large enough, they determined, to produce 10,000 to 75,000 cases of thyroid cancer. In 1993, residents living near the Nevada Test Site were included in the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act, 1,375 claims were honored (1,121 were denied).
Yes and my mom and two of my aunts were some of those people that got thyroid cancer, although living next to Hanford, which produced most of our nuclear weapons at the time, was probably the biggest cause. As you cna see from this table below radiation from nuclear testing and accidents account for a very small portion of the normal background radiation we're exposed to everyday. Now obviously if you're living within a few miles of a nuclear test site that's gonna be a bit higher.
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/ehs/o...background.htm

Code:
Radiation Source Average Annual Whole Body Dose (millirem/year) 
Natural: Cosmic 29 
Terrestrial 29 
Radon 200 
Internal (K-40, C-14, etc.) 40 
Manmade: Diagnostic X-ray 39 
Nuclear Medicine 14 
Consumer Products 11 
All others: Fallout, air travel, occupational, etc. 2 
Average annual total 360 millirem/year 
Tobacco (if you smoke, add ~280 millirem)
Quote:
Don't you see the irony in suggesting its ok to use nukes against sites producing WMD? You're saying its ok for us to use them, but not anyone else.
That's the whole idea of a pre-emptive strike. If North Korea threatened to launch a nuclear missle at us and satellite imagery showed them fueling it and getting it ready for launch at the United States or one of our allies I think we'd be justified in using a tacticla nuclear weapon to stop it, as long as it was not in the middle of a major popluation center. And yes I'm saying it's k for us to use them but not anyone else, that's ethnocentrism for you, learn to accept it, 'cause everyone has it.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:10 PM Slacker is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManSandwichMayo
you fucking commie liberal swede
you belgian racist wanna-be-nazi fucktard
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:10 PM Straw Man is offline  
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and many more don't disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja:
Many historians would like to disagree with you on that one.

But I suppose we will never really know.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:11 PM 2slow is offline  
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2slow
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what and conventional artillery only kills uniformed military?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yoda634
QFT. The effects of nuclear weapons are too indiscriminate and horrific for use by anyone in any instance.
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Old 05-01-2005, 05:13 PM 2slow is offline  
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