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Straw Man
RuHo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsisname
When japan fought WWII they were less than 100 years out of their feudal era. Their old world traditions were in many people still alive and well.
That makes assuming they will all disembowel themselves at the very sight of an american soldier in their soil 100% correct.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:10 AM Straw Man is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
Like I said, I don't really care for your propaganda. You are doing a guess job off things that were there 60 years ago, and people didn't know back then. You are willing to accept this side only because it justifies the use of a nuclear weapon.


Yeah, and they only watch hentai when they are not busy being in samurai armor.
That is the way it has been for many centuries. Thank you for your kind evaluation.

Mission accomplished
Look, spout your communist propaganda anyway you can. Read up on Operation Downfall / Coronet / Olympic..
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:16 AM ViriiK is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofugger
I'm willing to bet had Saddam used chemical or biological weapons during either gulf war, we would have used some low yeild nukes (< 15 kiloton)

That was the gist of the message communicated (via unofficial channels) from Bush 1 to Saddam.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:18 AM punisher is offline  
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#93  

Straw Man
RuHo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
Look, spout your communist propaganda anyway you can. Read up on Operation Downfall / Coronet / Olympic..
These are the times I enjoy most in the pit. When someone disagrees with you, you call them a communist/maoist/terrorist sympathizer/whatever. Not only do you fail to understand I am not necessarily claiming the opposite you are claiming, you also assume I have some agenda. Maybe you should try and get a grip on your reading comprehension before trying to discuss anything you stupid fuck. Please try explaining some more how dropping an A-bomb is actually a humanitarian effort, and while you are doing it please do not read anything anyone posts.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:20 AM Straw Man is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
These are the times I enjoy most in the pit. When someone disagrees with you, you call them a communist/maoist/terrorist sympathizer/whatever. Not only do you fail to understand I am not necessarily claiming the opposite you are claiming, you also assume I have some agenda. Maybe you should try and get a grip on your reading comprehension before trying to discuss anything you stupid fuck. Please try explaining some more how dropping an A-bomb is actually a humanitarian effort, and while you are doing it please do not read anything anyone posts.
Again it doesn't change the facts of Operation Downfall preperation which you're hoping to label as "propaganda".. I stand with my points I've made in this thread which you're hoping to deflect..

The Japanese have a honor system of victory and losses. They do kill themselves when they are ashamed with defeat unless Emperor tell them to not commit "seppuku".. Had Operation Downfall happen instead of the atomic bombing of Japan, there would have been over 1.5 Million US Marines used in the invasion in 2 waves of invasion. The Japanese had already prepared themselves by constructing over 15,000 suicide torpedoes (Kaiten).. The Japanese still had a functioning industry similar to the Nazi building their V-2 Industry underground. They were saving everything they could to rebuild their "Kamikaze" Air Force which was unknown to the United States that they had over 12,000 Planes to be used against our Carriers, Jeep Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, LSD/LSM/LST/LSV's, etc for a total of 1900 ships. The British & Australians were planning to assist in this by providing air protection in joint cooperation with the 5th/7th/13th US Army Air Force

The Battle for Japan would have been the biggest bloodbath of Modern Time.. The United States estimated this because of the Battle for Iwo Jima. There were 22,000 Japanese Soldiers on that Island and they fought to the death. Every single fighter died refusing to surrender.

The Destruction by firebombing of Kobe, Tokyo, and Osaka had killed more people than in the both Atomic Bomb uses combined.. The targets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected for two important reasons. Nagaski was the munition center for the Japanese war machine whereas Hiroshima was the Naval Construction Yard which had produced alot of the Carriers of the Japanese Fleet, the Yamato and not-finished sister ships, hundreds of destroyers and cruisers, etc..
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:22 AM ViriiK is offline  
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#95  

Selj
 
Nothing.

And IMO Japan can slide by but thats because of the historical surrounding and it being the first one ever to be used so everyone knows what can happen today.


edit: and from the post above....wasn't Nagasaki bombed because the plane was running out of gas and wasn't going to reach its main target?
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:30 AM Selj is offline  
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#96  

Straw Man
RuHo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
Again it doesn't change the facts of Operation Downfall preperation which you're hoping to label as "propaganda".. I stand with my points I've made in this thread which you're hoping to deflect..
Opinion!=facts
Like I said before, the only reason you embrace this view is solely because it makes you think dropping an A-bomb is a humanitarian effort. You are desperately trying to make it sound like saying otherwise is a pseudoliberal attempt to defame the US, and something very unheard of. While doing that you assume I subscribe to that "theory", which makes it even more laughable, you brainwashed little piece of shit. I also love it how you keep posting that shit again.


Quote:
I will just all over again, because my brain does not function like it should. I will probably do it many times after this, because I am a mongoloid.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:38 AM Straw Man is offline  
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#97  

TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbHo#2
I'm willing to wager you are a stupid fuck that has no idea on anything


Im willing to wager that in one post you Bah it's 60 year old opinion in one post and then OMG it was only 60 years ago it's in all the history books in another.

Try to keep better track of your


Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
There was that thing called world war 2 you might want to check out. Of course, it happened 60 years ago so I guess it is in the history books only anymore, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
Like I said, I don't really care for your propaganda. You are doing a guess job off things that were there 60 years ago, and people didn't know back then. You are willing to accept this side only because it justifies the use of a nuclear weapon.


Yeah, and they only watch hentai when they are not busy being in samurai armor.
That is the way it has been for many centuries. Thank you for your kind evaluation.

Mission accomplished
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Last edited by TheMorlock; 05-02-2005 at 06:29 AM..
Old 05-02-2005, 05:02 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#98  

joemama
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Was it justified in WW2? Yes, as others have said...without using the bomb the war would have dragged on for a couple of more years with hundreds of thousands killed on both sides and most likely widescale destruction of the infrastructure on the island. Most people don't realize (or ignore) the fact that Germany had passed on their atomic research to the Japanese when it looked like they were going to fall....knowing what we know now about the Japanese knack for copying others ideas and making it better...how long would we have had to wait before they made bombs even more powerful than our own?

Knowing what we know now...I don't think any use of nuclear weapons is actually justified but it would become neccessary (for retaliation) and the only chance for survival if someone strikes with nukes first..
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:20 AM joemama is offline  
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#99  

Straw Man
RuHo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock
Im willing to wager that in one post you Bah it's 60 year old opinion in one post and then OMG it was only 60 years ago it's in all the history books in another.

Try to keep better track of your
You wager wrong, bum. Or then I did not express myself clearly enough.


What I meant about the Japan 60 years ago, is that people could not really evaluate what would happen back then either. Only thing that was really certain is a shitload of people will die either way.

You see, this "land invasion" argument suggests that those gooks would have thrown their fetuses and pokemon cards against the invaders, and practically everyone would have rather died than surrendered. For some reason this does not fit into the A-bomb part, why is that? Because defeat was certain. So, people like Viriik choose to argue that the japs would have fought till the death, when in reality they did not

That cannot be known for sure (since the emperor surrendered anyway, after the A-bombs that is), and since it is a part of this argument, why did they not continue AFTER the A-bombs?
Because the A-bombs showed they are fighting an enemy that will fucking desecrate them at will. If they are willing to fight into certain death, they would have not surrendered after that either. Since it is certain either way doom is inevitable.
Russia also declared war against Japan, and to say the emperor would not understand this means the entire country will be fucking owned anyway is undermining your own military and giving way too much emphasis on a culture that was going to wither away anyway.
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:24 AM Straw Man is offline  
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#100  

ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
Opinion!=facts
Like I said before, the only reason you embrace this view is solely because it makes you think dropping an A-bomb is a humanitarian effort. You are desperately trying to make it sound like saying otherwise is a pseudoliberal attempt to defame the US, and something very unheard of. While doing that you assume I subscribe to that "theory", which makes it even more laughable, you brainwashed little piece of shit. I also love it how you keep posting that shit again.
It is fact you dumbass..

Read up on Operation Downfall / Coronet / Olympic..

The estimation which was made then are facts. Not opinions of today.

The Japanese have a honor system of victory and losses. They do kill themselves when they are ashamed with defeat unless Emperor tell them to not commit "seppuku" which is exactly what he did in the radio broadcast to all of Japan.. Had Operation Downfall happen instead of the atomic bombing of Japan, there would have been over 1.5 Million US Marines used in the invasion in 2 waves of invasion. The Japanese had already prepared themselves by constructing over 15,000 suicide torpedoes (Kaiten).. The Japanese still had a functioning industry similar to the Nazi building their V-2 Industry underground. They were saving everything they could to rebuild their "Kamikaze" Air Force which was unknown to the United States that they had over 12,000 Planes to be used against our Carriers, Jeep Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, LSD/LSM/LST/LSV's, etc for a total of 1900 ships. The British & Australians were planning to assist in this by providing air protection in joint cooperation with the 5th/7th/13th US Army Air Force

The Battle for Japan would have been the biggest bloodbath of Modern Time.. The United States estimated this because of the Battle for Iwo Jima. There were 22,000 Japanese Soldiers on that Island and they fought to the death. Every single fighter died refusing to surrender.

The Destruction by firebombing of Kobe, Tokyo, and Osaka had killed more people than in the both Atomic Bomb uses combined.. The targets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected for two important reasons. Nagaski was the munition center for the Japanese war machine whereas Hiroshima was the Naval Construction Yard which had produced alot of the Carriers of the Japanese Fleet, the Yamato and not-finished sister ships, hundreds of destroyers and cruisers, etc..

Dropping the Bomb Result: 230,000 (Including Radiation Deaths)
Invasion of Japan : Millions+

You do the math. You apparently wanted to choose the latter because it isn't quick. But takes time to complete. The Japanese People were committed to fighting for their "God" or Emperor which he renounced after the war was over.
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Last edited by ViriiK; 05-02-2005 at 06:48 AM..
Old 05-02-2005, 06:31 AM ViriiK is offline  
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#101  

TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbHo#2
You wager wrong, bum. Or then I did not express myself clearly enough.


What I meant about the Japan 60 years ago, is that people could not really evaluate what would happen back then either. Only thing that was really certain is a shitload of people will die either way.

...twaddle... snip
.
Ah the clueless fuck got caught out again and had to "clarify" things.

Hey clueless fuck. When we were taking the islands the japanese military herded civilians to cliffs and told them to jump because we were going to torture and rape them all to death and it was a cleaner death. They believed it and jumped. I hear umbilical cords make fine garrottes Use two fetuses and you have a bolo
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:46 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#102  

PopeKevinI
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
Was it justified in WW2? Yes, as others have said...without using the bomb the war would have dragged on for a couple of more years with hundreds of thousands killed on both sides and most likely widescale destruction of the infrastructure on the island.

I've been going back and forth on whether the nuke was the best way to end WWII. I have no doubt that to those people who made the call, it looked like the only viable solution. But being the armchair generals that we are these days, it's easy to look back and wonder whether the same results could have been acheived without dropping two nuclear bombs.

If we had firebombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think the end result would have been the same, except that a few more American planes would have been shot down. What ultimately brought about Japan's surrender was a show of force following the nukes; they realized then that it was impossible to rebuild enough to put up a fight.
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Old 05-02-2005, 06:53 AM PopeKevinI is offline  
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#103  

Dyno
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People tend to believe that is was Pearl Harbour that stirred America to war, but this isn't really true. Before that, while the war was raging across Europe, America was assisting their allies with naval blockades across the Pacific. They stayed out of the fighting but they were putting their ships to good use trying to cut off Axis supply lines. Among other things this blockade was very effective in limiting the amount of oil that made its way to Japan. Having no oil not only crippled Japan's ability to wage war but also was a danger to their industrialized nation as a whole.

Japan had to do something or face the collapse of their economy. They gambled that if they gave the US a bloody nose and showed them the horrors of modern warfare then America would curl up and stay out of the theatre. They were wrong and got bombed for it. Really, as I see it Japan was fucked from the get-go. They didn't start it, they didn't finish it, and the only way they would have avoided being bombed is to have stayed out of the war in the first place. Too bad they were too warlike and expansionistic to pass up on this opportunity to conquer other nations in the first place. For this reason they got what they deserved.

That said, if you want to talk about response then the atomic bombs were an unreasonable response. The casualties at Pearl Harbour totalled 2,403 with 68 of those being civilians. The bombs killed around 100,000 and most of them were civilians.

I think it's also worth mentioning that before the Hawaiian Islands became a State they were a separate kingdom that was annexxed in 1898. American thuggery - er I'm sorry, the fight for liberty and democracy - has been going on for a very, very long time.

Back to the topic at hand, just because the bomb blows up real good, better than anything else we can make, does not mean it is an acceptable weapon. Nuke spheres are bound to encompass civilian centres probably containing millions of people. For the survival of the human race this course of action has been widely discouraged. I hope it stays that way because if it doesn't we're all fucked. Living in fear of the bomb corrupted a generation worldwide. Those who live in fear tend to make irrational choices. Who knows what environmental, industrial, and hedonistic nightmares have resulted from a generation thinking that none of this was going to last anyway.

Ahh rambling.
Old 05-02-2005, 07:31 AM Dyno is offline  
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#104  

Straw Man
RuHo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock
Ah the clueless fuck got caught out again and had to "clarify" things.
Or you wagered wrong. Either way, I might lack proper English, but you will stil remain a stupid fuck, so I win and you lose
Quote:
Hey clueless fuck. When we were taking the islands the japanese military herded civilians to cliffs and told them to jump because we were going to torture and rape them all to death and it was a cleaner death. They believed it and jumped. I hear umbilical cords make fine garrottes Use two fetuses and you have a bolo
Yeah and nazis ate babies.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:07 AM Straw Man is offline  
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