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2slow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
Or you wagered wrong. Either way, I might lack proper English, but you will stil remain a stupid fuck, so I win and you lose
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:12 AM 2slow is offline  
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Straw Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
It is fact you dumbass..

Read up on Operation Downfall / Coronet / Olympic..

The estimation which was made then are facts. Not opinions of today.
No, that was an estimation made back then, and no one can without a doubt say the conclusions people like you draw from it are accurate. The reason why it cannot be described as accurate is because it did not happen. It presents a scenario, and it presents estimations from said scenario. Sometimes these estimations are on the money, sometimes they are not. That is why they are called estimations. I am not really saying the estimate is correct, and I am not saying the estimate is incorrect either. What I am saying is, it is an estimate, and an estimate is well... an estimate.

It really is not that hard, but I guess for a stupid fuck like you its like God wrote it.
Quote:
The Japanese have a honor system of victory and losses. They do kill themselves when they are ashamed with defeat unless Emperor tell them to not commit "seppuku" which is exactly what he did in the radio broadcast to all of Japan..
Of course, such a radio broadcast could have never happened without the A-bomb.
Quote:
Had Operation Downfall happen instead of the atomic bombing of Japan, there would have been over 1.5 Million US Marines used in the invasion in 2 waves of invasion.
speculation
Quote:
The Japanese had already prepared themselves by constructing over 15,000 suicide torpedoes (Kaiten).. The Japanese still had a functioning industry similar to the Nazi building their V-2 Industry underground. They were saving everything they could to rebuild their "Kamikaze" Air Force which was unknown to the United States that they had over 12,000 Planes to be used against our Carriers, Jeep Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, LSD/LSM/LST/LSV's, etc for a total of 1900 ships. The British & Australians were planning to assist in this by providing air protection in joint cooperation with the 5th/7th/13th US Army Air Force
ok
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The Battle for Japan would have been the biggest bloodbath of Modern Time.. The United States estimated this because of the Battle for Iwo Jima. There were 22,000 Japanese Soldiers on that Island and they fought to the death. Every single fighter died refusing to surrender.
speculation
Quote:
The Destruction by firebombing of Kobe, Tokyo, and Osaka had killed more people than in the both Atomic Bomb uses combined..
I wonder why they did not surrender after such losses
Quote:
The targets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected for two important reasons. Nagaski was the munition center for the Japanese war machine whereas Hiroshima was the Naval Construction Yard which had produced alot of the Carriers of the Japanese Fleet, the Yamato and not-finished sister ships, hundreds of destroyers and cruisers, etc..
ok
Quote:
Dropping the Bomb Result: 230,000 (Including Radiation Deaths)
Invasion of Japan : Millions+
speculation
Quote:
You do the math. You apparently wanted to choose the latter because it isn't quick. But takes time to complete. The Japanese People were committed to fighting for their "God" or Emperor which he renounced after the war was over.
I can't do the math, I do not want to pull it out of my ass like you do.
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:18 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Originally Posted by Whatsisname
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Old 05-02-2005, 08:19 AM Straw Man is offline  
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jubjub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo

Yeah and nazis ate babies.

actually , gassing was the preferred method.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:01 AM jubjub is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jubjub
actually , gassing was the preferred method.
Yeah for jews of course. German babies were a delicacy, though.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:11 AM Straw Man is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo


Reality pwns you yet again............

Japan's WWII A-bomb Project in Hungnam, N Korea


Quote:
Japan's Secret War- Japan's Race Against Time. Wilcox's book explains not only how essential it was to finish WWII as soon as humanly possible, it ties up some loose ends. Why did Russia make a beeline to Hungnam when it entered the war, and why was it so antsy to start the invasion? Why was our country so sure that Orientals wouldn't ever develop the bomb? And for those who doubt that Japan would have used it, read the definitive, massive, but eminently readable Japan's Imperial Conspiracy by Bergamini.

Japanese Atomic Program (PhysicsToday) -- The Japanese atomic program was a program by the Empire of Japan to develop a genzai bakudan, an atomic bomb during World War II. The program started around the same time as the U.S. Manhattan Project. Most experts believe that the program was small, and managed neither to refine enough uranium-235 nor to breed enough plutonium needed to make a workable device, although there are indications that Japan had a more sizable program than is commonly understood. One isolated and disputed report even claims that an atomic bomb was tested and detonated on August 12, 1945 near Hungnam, North Korea, shortly after the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. In any case, the surrender of Japan three days later on August 15 halted all developments before Japan could finish developing the weapon.

Japan's Nuclear Weapons Program (FAS) -- There are indications that Japan had a more sizable program than is commonly understood, and that there was close cooperation among the Axis powers, including a secretive exchange of war materiel. The German submarine U-234, which surrendered to US forces in May 1945, was found to be carrying 560 kilograms of Uranium oxide destined for Japan's own atomic program. The oxide contained about 3.5 kilograms of the isotope U-235, which would have been about a fifth of the total U-235 needed to make one bomb. After Japan surrendered on 15 August 1945, the occupying US Army found five Japanese cyclotrons, which could be used to separate fissionable material from ordinary uranium. The Americans smashed the cyclotrons and dumped them into Tokyo Harbor.

Bombardment of Tokyo's Nuclear Labs (AU AF) -- Japan's scientific community was aware of the explosive possibilities of an uranium bomb. During World War II, the Japanese Army funded one nuclear research project in Tokyo and the Japanese Navy started two other such projects.

WARTIME DOCUMENTS SET RECORD STRAIGHT -- Japan's A-bomb goal still long way off in '45 (JapanTimes) -- The night the American B-29 warplanes came, Ryohei Nakane had been enriching uranium for Japan's "super bomb." By the next morning -- April 13, 1945 -- all that remained of his samples and his laboratory at Riken Institute was charred, splintered wood and broken glass

New evidence tracks Japan's efforts to create atomic bomb (Viking) -- Japan was working on its own atomic bomb when the United States dropped atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. Also in 1945, Nazi Germany was shipping uranium oxide to Japan by submarine, escorted by two Japanese officers. This article from the San Diego Union-Tribune shines new light on these historicals facts, which are not widely known.

Japan's A-bomb There has been speculation for many years that Japan was working on the A-Bomb. An article appeared in World War II Magazine (July 1995) by Al Hemingway that indicates indeed, that Japan may have exploded an atomic bomb on a tiny islet in the Sea of Japan on August 12, 1945. (konan = Hungnam) This is basically regurgitation of Wilcox's claim.

Japanese physicists (AIP) -- A number of Japanese physicists made significant contributions to physics during the twentieth century. Until very recently, however, Western historians have not fully appreciated how Japanese physicists fostered the development of physics as a science. One reflection of the Western view of Japanese physicists as "outsiders" is the fact that not a single biography of a Japanese physicist (except a few translations from Japanese) has been published in the English language. Nishina Yoshio

German A-bomb Over the years, there has been a good deal of speculation on the German's atomic program of W.W.II. By putting together information from a number of reliable sources (listed at the end of the article), I have endeavored to give a brief overview of the project, as well as a cutaway drawing of what the finished weapon may have been like, and how it may have been delivered.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another source that mentions the Aug 12 date

19450812 (Sun.) [U] Japan's Atomic Bomb, Leon Thompson (Reprinted with permission of Military magazine, 2122 28th St., Sacramento, CA 95818. A sample copy of Military may be obtained by writing to the above address)

While reading the article by William B. Breuer entitled "Hiroshima bomb saved lives" (Oct. '94, pg. 39), I had to chuckle to myself, because he is on the right track, but doesn't know the half of it; the bomb saved two nations! I was a Medic Surgical-Medical Technician from 1947-49 in the 237th Med. Disp. where we headquartered in the Meiji Building on Avenue A in downtown Tokyo, Japan and we took "cell slides" from victims of the Hiroshima bomb. I saw mutated vegetables grown in contaminated soil after the bomb and flew over Hiroshima two years after the bomb it still looked like a garbage dump. I saw the Navy ships used in the atoll tests when I was in Hawaii on my way home in 1949. . . but the best was yet to come.

One hot summer day in the park outside Japan's Imperial Palace, I met up with Mr. Papps, an OSS Officer. His office was just a few yards down the hallway from Gen. MacArthur's office and he invited me to see his office. As I walked into his office, I saw three top American atomic scientists going over a large diagram of some kind of device. I asked Mr. Papps what it was and he said it was the actual diagram of the Japanese atomic bomb. I asked him if it was workable. He said, "Yes." It was just like ours and very workable. He also showed me some Japanese orders to use the bomb on the Allies when they came into Japanese waters; how they would do this was not explained.
From what I could tell, a German transport submarine No. 234 was on its way to Japan with plutonium to make the bomb more powerful. It was supposed to dock at Hiroshima, but I later learned that the submarine gave up to the Americans in the Atlantic Portsmouth, NH so they never received the plutonium, but they did have enough uranium for one bomb and were ready to use it. We dropped our bomb first. Had we waited two weeks, the Japanese atomic bomb would have been used on our Allied fleet, and this was one of the reasons they kept dragging their feet to give up. When it became known that a third bomb would be dropped on Tokyo, they began to talk peace.

I hope that William Breuer will find the papers I saw at the OSS office because it tells a bigger story. It was really a shock to our atomic scientists to learn that the Japanese had nearly beaten us to the draw, and this is one of the reasons they would not let the story be told. We nearly lost it all, and two weeks made a big difference. I know because I personally saw the actual diagrams to the Japanese atomic bomb and they did intend to use it on us first.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:20 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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Straw Man
RuHo
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I do not think I once mentioned japan and their nuclear arms race but ok Arthur, you sure pwned me!

Once again I will state that I am not saying a land invasion NECESSARILY would have been any better or any worse. I do not understand why it is so hard to grasp.
I am AGAINST using these fucking devices, and I object in the case of Japan too, but that is something I will not argue. What I am arguing though, is you people using fucking hearsay, and assumption, based on estimates, as FACT. Fuck you s.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:34 AM Straw Man is offline  
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ViriiK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
No, that was an estimation made back then, and no one can without a doubt say the conclusions people like you draw from it are accurate. The reason why it cannot be described as accurate is because it did not happen. It presents a scenario, and it presents estimations from said scenario. Sometimes these estimations are on the money, sometimes they are not. That is why they are called estimations. I am not really saying the estimate is correct, and I am not saying the estimate is incorrect either. What I am saying is, it is an estimate, and an estimate is well... an estimate.
Again still facts of what they were estimating after what happened at Iwo Jima..

Quote:
It really is not that hard, but I guess for a stupid fuck like you its like God wrote it.
Of course, such a radio broadcast could have never happened without the A-bomb.
Uhh first of all.. The Japanese People before they surrendered view their Emperor as their "God" and had we captured him in the invasion of Japan, they would have fought for him and even committed "Seppuku" had he not publish his broadcast that the Empire of Japan was surrendering. That they must listen to him and surrender unconditionally. Several years after that he told the people of Japan that he was not a "God".. Facts again
Quote:
speculation
ok
speculation
I wonder why they did not surrender after such losses
ok
speculation
I can't do the math, I do not want to pull it out of my ass like you do.
Facts is what they are.. You want to play it another way with your communist views..
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:39 AM ViriiK is offline  
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arthur pendragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo
I do not think I once mentioned japan and their nuclear arms race but ok Arthur, you sure pwned me!

Once again I will state that I am not saying a land invasion NECESSARILY would have been any better or any worse. I do not understand why it is so hard to grasp.
I am AGAINST using these fucking devices, and I object in the case of Japan too, but that is something I will not argue. What I am arguing though, is you people using fucking hearsay, and assumption, based on estimates, as FACT. Fuck you s.

O.K. I am sorry, next time I will lube your ass before shoving a telephone pole up it........
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:40 AM arthur pendragon is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyno
That said, if you want to talk about response then the atomic bombs were an unreasonable response. The casualties at Pearl Harbour totalled 2,403 with 68 of those being civilians. The bombs killed around 100,000 and most of them were civilians.
People also tend to conveniently forget (or gloss over) the fact that America did not "usher in the Atomic age" It was started in Germany...they had weapons in the works far more advanced than anything the US and allies had at the time...and they passed the research on to the Japanese near the fall of Berlin. Given the astounding speed which Japan went from a Feudal agrarian society to adopting western ideas to become an industrial power..do you really think we had much time to allow them to develop atomic weapons of their own? I agree that nukes should never be used again but just consider Germany or Japan being the first to strike back during WW2..
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:42 AM joemama is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
Again still facts of what they were estimating after what happened at Iwo Jima..
Yes. I am not arguing they did not estimate those figures. I am arguing it is an estimate
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fact
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=estimate
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=retard
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Uhh first of all.. The Japanese People before they surrendered view their Emperor as their "God" and had we captured him in the invasion of Japan, they would have fought for him and even committed "Seppuku" had he not publish his broadcast that the Empire of Japan was surrendering. That they must listen to him and surrender unconditionally.
Several years after that he told the people of Japan that he was not a "God".. Facts again
You really are slower than usual today (if that is possible). You just keep on regurgitating this shit over and over again thinking its witty banter when it has absogoddamnlutely nothing to do with anything. The only thing remarkable in your little paragraph is you actually manage to spell seppuku.
The problem is you argue japanese people would have fought to the last man, TO THE DEATH. When they DIDNT. You propose a scenario where they die fighting or disemboweling themselves, WHICH THEY DIDNT. The emperor (according to his own words) surrendered beacuse he did not want to see himself inflicting so much suffering on his own people. You seem to suggest him realising this is only because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It is an assumption based on nothing more than the sheer destruction these 2 bombs made, and you compare it to a scenario based on estimates, that did not happen.

Quote:
Facts is what they are.. You want to play it another way with your communist views..
Yeah yeah fascist
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:49 AM Straw Man is offline  
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#116  

Straw Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthur pendragon
O.K. I am sorry, next time I will lube your ass before shoving a telephone pole up it........
Well, you being an expert on anal insertion (specifically male anal insertion), I have no doubt in your expertise in this field
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:50 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
People also tend to conveniently forget (or gloss over) the fact that America did not "usher in the Atomic age" It was started in Germany...they had weapons in the works far more advanced than anything the US and allies had at the time...and they passed the research on to the Japanese near the fall of Berlin. Given the astounding speed which Japan went from a Feudal agrarian society to adopting western ideas to become an industrial power..do you really think we had much time to allow them to develop atomic weapons of their own? I agree that nukes should never be used again but just consider Germany or Japan being the first to strike back during WW2.

Oh I'm in agreeance that if an atomic bomb was going to be dropped, the US dropping it on Japan was a good a place as any, meaning that if anyone dropped it anywhere as a military objective there would be the same morals to ponder and we would be here debating whether or not it was a good choice.

The point I was making that you quoted above however dealt with response, which is what governments often struggle with after they have been attacked. What response is reasonable and what response is unreasonable? If Hiroshima and Nagasaki was attacked as a response to Pearl Harbour I think most of us will agree that it was an unreasonable response.

As it has been mentioned already however, it was a more complicated issue. There was a lot more riding on Fat Man and Little Boy then the response of Pearl Harbour.
Old 05-02-2005, 09:53 AM Dyno is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
People also tend to conveniently forget (or gloss over) the fact that America did not "usher in the Atomic age" It was started in Germany...they had weapons in the works far more advanced than anything the US and allies had at the time...and they passed the research on to the Japanese near the fall of Berlin. Given the astounding speed which Japan went from a Feudal agrarian society to adopting western ideas to become an industrial power..do you really think we had much time to allow them to develop atomic weapons of their own? I agree that nukes should never be used again but just consider Germany or Japan being the first to strike back during WW2..

Except, that when the bomb was dropped Germany was out of the war and Japan was nowhere near developing an atom bomb or the means to deliver it. The Japanese were prepared to surrender at that point.
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Old 05-02-2005, 09:56 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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Dyno
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Quote:
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Except, that when the bomb was dropped Germany was out of the war and Japan was nowhere near developing an atom bomb or the means to deliver it. The Japanese were prepared to surrender at that point.

I don't think you've been reading the whole thread because people have been pulling out evidence that would indicate otherwise.

Evidence being a word I'm using loosely.
Old 05-02-2005, 09:59 AM Dyno is offline  
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