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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Except, that when the bomb was dropped Germany was out of the war and Japan was nowhere near developing an atom bomb or the means to deliver it. The Japanese were prepared to surrender at that point.
The Japanese about to surrender is an assumption...historical evidence leans more towards not near surrender but a desperate bid to save their Island. The US wouldn't have developed atomic weapons if it weren't for German scientists seeking asylum in the west..development was started long before Germany fell and the bombs on Japan were at the time seen as the quickest way to put an end to the war altogether and begin the rebuilding. Hindsight is 20/20 however and now it seems best that we should have buried our knowledge of Atomic power as well as taken away what Germany/Japan had. The hard part was knowing how far along the Japanese were..
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:11 AM joemama is offline  
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wen
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kueller
Those aren't really reasons. Power potentially could be a reason to go to war, but since we're already vastly superior to any other country I'm going to have to pass on it.

Get off your high horse, and when you stop waving that big american cock around, don't forget to try and pick up your economy. If by superior you mean overweight then I agree. America is vastly superior by leaps and bounds to any other country. It is foolish to assume that you are better than everyone else in every sense. You are different, not superior.

(note: Iraq -> oil -> power )

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Propaganda could be a cause...If our only news station was fox news, and we didn't have a free press, and the internet was censored completely.
Keep in mind, that your press, and your internet sites, and your news stations are run by.... YOU. If Americans think X, then X is what the media will say. You're telling me that you watch European news stations regularly?

Quote:
Justify having a big military? I've never really found that the government has trouble concocting reasons (generally invalid reasons) to keep our military spending an order of magnitude over our closest competitors. Besides, they had terrorism to fight, that's surely all the excuse they needed to keep the budget healthy.
So you're saying Bush has been successful in justifying military spending through invalid (aka invasion of Iraq on completely false pretenses, given that every single reason given for invading iraq was proven wrong, and "To remove the fierce dictator" was never on that list). Good point, i'm glad you agree.

Terrorism to fight eh? So how many American's were killed by Iraqi's before the invasion? So Iraq was linked to the 9/11 attacks? No?

Quote:
Why exactly were we supposed to get involved in WWII earlier?
Hmm, maybe to join in the rest of the world to try and stop Hitler? Especially considering you EXPECTED Country's to join in on your unfounded war on Iraq.

Quote:
Still waiting on the explanation behind the idea that getting rid of saddam was bad, AND not getting rid of hitler earlier was bad. Far as I can tell both were brutal dictators who had shown a tendency to invade neighboring countries, but I'm sure there's some redeeming qualities I'm missing in saddam. Maybe something along the lines of: He didn't bomb your country, so it's none of your concern perhaps? That's the rediculous international attitude of watch and whine I was talking about earlier, and it disgusts me.
Saddam was bad, yes, but there are, and have been plenty of bad dictators. Does America run in with bombs and troops and war on every single one of them? Is it a policy that all dictators are to be removed by force? Iraq was a diminishing threat, not a growing one. If invading iraq was such a good idea, then why didn't the rest of the world seem to be too keen on your invasion of Iraq (aside from maybe Tony Blair and a few kangaroos from Australia)
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:28 AM wen is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyno
I don't think you've been reading the whole thread because people have been pulling out evidence that would indicate otherwise.

Evidence being a word I'm using loosely.

Whatever. The fact is that the USSR declared war on Japan 2 days after Hiroshima, and prompty kicked their arses in Manchuria. That would've made them surrender.

The US knew the Soviets were going to join in the war against Japan and that would probably be the end of Imperial Japan, but went ahead with the atomic attacks anyway just to show off.
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:34 AM Carl Rove is offline  
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mofugger
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Had we used a nuclear weapon in either gulf war in the thread of chemical or biological attack, I'd almost garuntee we'd have dropped one in an unpopulated part of the desert as a sort of "warning shot". Minimize civilian casualties. If they proceeded to ignore that warning...what comes next is on them.
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:39 AM mofugger is offline  
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mofugger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViriiK
I don't care what you say about my spelling of 1 word.. You hope to deflect the subject off target.

The Japanese have a honor system of victory and losses. They do kill themselves when they are ashamed with defeat unless Emperor tell them to not commit "seppuku".. Had Operation Downfall happen instead of the atomic bombing of Japan, there would have been over 1.5 Million US Marines used in the invasion in 2 waves of invasion. The Japanese had already prepared themselves by constructing over 15,000 suicide torpedoes (Kaiten).. The Japanese still had a functioning industry similar to the Nazi building their V-2 Industry underground. They were saving everything they could to rebuild their "Kamikaze" Air Force which was unknown to the United States that they had over 12,000 Planes to be used against our Carriers, Jeep Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, LSD/LSM/LST/LSV's, etc for a total of 1900 ships. The British & Australians were planning to assist in this by providing air protection in joint cooperation with the 5th/7th/13th US Army Air Force

The Battle for Japan would have been the biggest bloodbath of Modern Time.. The United States estimated this because of the Battle for Iwo Jima. There were 22,000 Japanese Soldiers on that Island and they fought to the death. Every single fighter died refusing to surrender.

The Destruction by firebombing of Kobe, Tokyo, and Osaka had killed more people than in the both Atomic Bomb uses combined.. The targets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were selected for two important reasons. Nagaski was the munition center for the Japanese war machine whereas Hiroshima was the Naval Construction Yard which had produced alot of the Carriers of the Japanese Fleet, the Yamato and not-finished sister ships, hundreds of destroyers and cruisers, etc..

iirc either one of both of those cities were backup targets
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:40 AM mofugger is offline  
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#125  

joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Whatever. The fact is that the USSR declared war on Japan 2 days after Hiroshima, and prompty kicked their arses in Manchuria. That would've made them surrender.

The US knew the Soviets were going to join in the war against Japan and that would probably be the end of Imperial Japan, but went ahead with the atomic attacks anyway just to show off.
The Soviets would have definately swept into the Japanese mainland...who do you think the Japanese would rather have as their conquerors us or the Russian bear? (that wouldn't leave by the way)
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Old 05-02-2005, 11:47 AM joemama is offline  
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jubjub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
The Soviets would have definately swept into the Japanese mainland...

how were they going to get there.... swim ?
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Old 05-02-2005, 02:05 PM jubjub is offline  
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#127  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slacker
Why are you changing the current thread of discussion? Are you going to defend your statement that the Constitution specifically states we're not to have a standing military? Or should I consider your evasion a sign that your argument has no basis whatsoever?

They exist in many state constitutions, the oldest being penn, ma, and it also exists in minnesotas, vermonts, etc, etc. On the original declaration of rights and grievances filed against england, having standing army without legislative consent was one of our grievances.

See amendment 10 of the US constitution to see how things not directly covered by the US constitution are to be enforced. ( short answer, if its not covered in the US Constitution its left to the states ), and you will see that by state law, which transcends federal in this case, that a standing army without specific legislative consent is to exist for more than 2 years. Of course, its debatable whether our congress has given de facto consent by funding it, but whatever.
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:35 PM Nano is offline  
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#128  

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If your nation is engaged in a total war against an enemy nation then nuclear weapons are definately on the table.

In WWII we were engaged in a total war against Japan, as soon as we had nukes we used them.

However thanks to the threat of nuclear weapons there have been no more total wars since WWII.

In addition to that use its definately justified to use them in retaliation for a WMD attack. Also as a last resort against an invading force.

If we are ever invaded by aliens I'm sure we would definately let the nukes fly then too if we had to.
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Old 05-02-2005, 03:59 PM O.F.Fascist is offline  
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ApathyEcstasy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.F.Fascist
If your nation is engaged in a total war against an enemy nation then nuclear weapons are definately on the table.

In WWII we were engaged in a total war against Japan, as soon as we had nukes we used them.

However thanks to the threat of nuclear weapons there have been no more total wars since WWII.

In addition to that use its definately justified to use them in retaliation for a WMD attack. Also as a last resort against an invading force.

If we are ever invaded by aliens I'm sure we would definately let the nukes fly then too if we had to.

if the aliens were advanced enough to travel all the way from another solar system just to invade us, i'm sure nukes will be childsplay for them
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:04 PM ApathyEcstasy is offline  
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Carl Rove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama
The Soviets would have definately swept into the Japanese mainland...who do you think the Japanese would rather have as their conquerors us or the Russian bear? (that wouldn't leave by the way)

Thankyou for proving my point. This would've made the nuclear weapons pointless.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:22 PM Carl Rove is offline  
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#131  

auction1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wen
Get off your high horse, and when you stop waving that big american cock around, don't forget to try and pick up your economy. If by superior you mean overweight then I agree. America is vastly superior by leaps and bounds to any other country. It is foolish to assume that you are better than everyone else in every sense. You are different, not superior.

(note: Iraq -> oil -> power )
If we went to gain power why is Iraq not applying for statehood under a puppet government? My wallet dearly wishes we'd gone there for oil, maybe then we wouldn't be seeing new gas price records every month.

Quote:
Keep in mind, that your press, and your internet sites, and your news stations are run by.... YOU. If Americans think X, then X is what the media will say. You're telling me that you watch European news stations regularly?
Watch? No, not much. But then I hardly ever watch american news either. Read online? Yeppers.


Quote:
So you're saying Bush has been successful in justifying military spending through invalid (aka invasion of Iraq on completely false pretenses, given that every single reason given for invading iraq was proven wrong, and "To remove the fierce dictator" was never on that list). Good point, i'm glad you agree.
This isn't a Bush thing. (note: The president only wields as much power as congress gives him) It's more a "The military has been passing enormous budgets through congress for decades with minimal oversight and they've gotten damn good as getting what they want" thing. I'm not making a judgement call on it either way, I'm just saying that you shouldn't blame the president for everything you don't agree with the US on.

Quote:
Terrorism to fight eh? So how many American's were killed by Iraqi's before the invasion? So Iraq was linked to the 9/11 attacks? No?
You misunderstand, the war on terror was a blank cheque to the military, there was no need for a war on Iraq to justify spending.


Quote:
Hmm, maybe to join in the rest of the world to try and stop Hitler? Especially considering you EXPECTED Country's to join in on your unfounded war on Iraq.
Finally we get back to the center of the issue. And your answer seems to be "If it's my problem it should be your problem". Ok, we're not averse to that idea. The confusion comes when we go with that idea, and you all come back screaming at us, like this:
Quote:
Saddam was bad, yes, but there are, and have been plenty of bad dictators. Does America run in with bombs and troops and war on every single one of them? Is it a policy that all dictators are to be removed by force? Iraq was a diminishing threat, not a growing one. If invading iraq was such a good idea, then why didn't the rest of the world seem to be too keen on your invasion of Iraq (aside from maybe Tony Blair and a few kangaroos from Australia)
So saddam was bad, and hitler was bad, and we should take out one, but not the other. I think I'm starting to understand...Hitler was just looking to fuck your shit up, while saddam was supplying france and russia with cheap oil (note, Iraq -> oil -> power). It's just selfishness! Crap, what's another country you were complaining about being selfish? The USA! Ahh damn, I think I knocked your bitchy ass off your high white horse. Hope you don't hurt yourself when you hit the ground.

And just for the record, yes, we do go bomb other dictators. Slobodan Milosevic comes to mind...Of course he wasn't supplying anyone with cheap oil (note: oil -> power) so no one really cared, except the people he was killing. They thought it was nice of someone to get things done, instead of just sitting around in UN council and issuing declarations.

Last edited by auction1; 05-02-2005 at 04:41 PM..
Old 05-02-2005, 04:37 PM auction1 is offline  
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#132  

R@$T@M@N
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wen
Get off your high horse, and when you stop waving that big american cock around, don't forget to try and pick up your economy. If by superior you mean overweight then I agree. America is vastly superior by leaps and bounds to any other country. It is foolish to assume that you are better than everyone else in every sense. You are different, not superior.
The economy of the United States, even though it's currently facing difficulty, is still ahead of the rest of the world. Our military power is so vast that we can destroy any part of the world at a moments notice. American businesses and entertainment are everywhere around the globe. That's why America is a superior nation.
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:47 PM R@$T@M@N is offline  
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#133  

ApathyEcstasy
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wen, ANY country that embraces fast food as being an adequate meal will have an obesity problem, live with it
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Old 05-02-2005, 04:50 PM ApathyEcstasy is offline  
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#134  

joemama
Watch Toomer burn those cowboys. How bout them cowboys?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmuck
Thankyou for proving my point. This would've made the nuclear weapons pointless.
And the Soviets would now have a solid base in the Pacific...and Japan as we know it would cease to exist. Great huh?
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Old 05-02-2005, 05:36 PM joemama is offline  
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