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Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9m9n9t View Post
Jesus-tittyfucking-christ, hell must have frozen over because bingstudent just contributed something useful to the thread

It's a good find but, unfortunately for you, the article you quoted agrees with myself and DigitalChaos:



The numbers were citations, too lazy to remove them - I'm also between classes so I don't have time to read any more of it atm

edit: I love how straw man still insists on banging his head against the wall until his helmet breaks and all the air comes rushing out of his empty skull. That "pound of adderall" bit still isn't getting old after the 3rd or 4th time... really, it isn't

The pound of adderall would do good for you. I don't know what malfunction you have but it'd really serve you well. Afterall you're so lost it sure as fuck wouldn't cause any more detriment. Yours is probably chromosome related though, so I guess the only thing that'll cure you is a bullet
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:02 PM Straw Man is offline  
#151  

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bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Yeah well nothing is fair. I guess that makes everything ok, as long as it has a goal. Alrighty.

As long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others, sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
e: odd how you appeal to authority (colleges having an obligation to prevent students from cheating), but you seem to skip entirely the fact that there's plenty of authority in the world saying that running around on amphetamines that the doctor man didn't really mean for you to have isn't alright.

Not odd at all. I don't support government laws prohibiting drugs, I do support college policies prohibiting cheating. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of authority.
Old 01-13-2009, 01:55 PM bingstudent is offline  
#152  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
As long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others, sure.
But it does. It makes for a dishonest test result overall (it does give a false impression on how you handle your shit long term). Others not wanting to break the law or "medicate" themselves due to risks involved are at a disadvantage. Just take the fucking shit if you want, don't play it's not unfair though.

Quote:
Not odd at all. I don't support government laws prohibiting drugs, I do support college policies prohibiting cheating. It has nothing to do with the legitimacy of authority.
oh wow that's fabulous, I guess you could use some of that pastime of yours to construct a list of authorities to conform to since it's that clear cut

(on a related sidenote I couldn't really care less if you people ate mushrooms before exams, but the least you could do is stop pretending)
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Old 01-13-2009, 02:08 PM Straw Man is offline  
#153  

DigitalChaos
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
But it does. It makes for a dishonest test result overall (it does give a false impression on how you handle your shit long term). Others not wanting to break the law or "medicate" themselves due to risks involved are at a disadvantage.
ding ding ding
There ya go. Its not about fair, it is about the tradeoff. It is not like these people do not have a choice. If they did not have a choice THEN it would not be fair. Some people value their health more than their short term success on a specific task, some don't....
Old 01-13-2009, 02:19 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
#154  

bingstudent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
But it does. It makes for a dishonest test result overall (it does give a false impression on how you handle your shit long term).

How does it make for a dishonest test result? As long as students aren't actually cheating the test by passing answers or having prior access then the results of the test would reflect the competence of the students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Others not wanting to break the law or "medicate" themselves due to risks involved are at a disadvantage.

I agree that laws restricting their use present a problem, since law-abiding students are currently unable to use the drugs to their full advantage. That's a problem with the law though, not the use of cognitive enhancers.

In regard to students that still desire not to use them, there is a degree of indirect coercion since they might feel pressured to use them to compete with other students. However, this degree of unfairness is no different than other more familiar cognitive enhancers widely available now like private tutoring, which only some students have access to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Just take the fucking shit if you want, don't play it's not unfair though.

When did I say that it's not unfair? The entire thesis of my argument is that life is unfair, as such I see no overriding moral imperative to prohibit cognitive enhancing drugs. Using these drugs as learning aids is obviously different from cheating on the test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
oh wow that's fabulous, I guess you could use some of that pastime of yours to construct a list of authorities to conform to since it's that clear cut

I already said that it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of authority. I support good policy. Rules against cheating, good. Drug prohibition, bad. What's so hard to grasp about that?
Old 01-13-2009, 02:29 PM bingstudent is offline  
#155  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
ding ding ding
There ya go. Its not about fair, it is about the tradeoff. It is not like these people do not have a choice. If they did not have a choice THEN it would not be fair. Some people value their health more than their short term success on a specific task, some don't....

Bull shit. That's a really bad spin with the word "choice", and while you americans seem to get hard mentioning "freedom" or "choice" and think it's the ultimate argument, it doesn't make for a compelling argument everytime you throw it out. I don't know what universe you live in, but apparently it has students either picking one of the two, and you find it a liberating choice. That it is not, welcome to reality.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:40 PM Straw Man is offline  
#156  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
How does it make for a dishonest test result? As long as students aren't actually cheating the test by passing answers or having prior access then the results of the test would reflect the competence of the students.
It doesn't reflect your aptitude unless you plan on being on amphetamines everytime some pressure is thrown at your general direction, for starters.

Quote:
I agree that laws restricting their use present a problem, since law-abiding students are currently unable to use the drugs to their full advantage. That's a problem with the law though, not the use of cognitive enhancers.
You didn't really answer.

Why are the laws regarding this an authority that one should not abide to, but something like say the university supervising tests is? You're the one that appealed to school authority on why "old fashioned cheating" is bad before I even said the word "law" to you.
Quote:
In regard to students that still desire not to use them, there is a degree of indirect coercion since they might feel pressured to use them to compete with other students. However, this degree of unfairness is no different than other more familiar cognitive enhancers widely available now like private tutoring, which only some students have access to.
The option to school your kids at home is *a tad* different than eating prescription drugs not meant for you

Quote:
When did I say that it's not unfair? The entire thesis of my argument is that life is unfair, as such I see no overriding moral imperative to prohibit cognitive enhancing drugs. Using these drugs as learning aids is obviously different from cheating on the test.
Considering both distort the purpose of the test (your potential for learning and handling shit), no, in that aspect it's not really any different at all.


Quote:
I already said that it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of authority. I support good policy. Rules against cheating, good. Drug prohibition, bad. What's so hard to grasp about that?
You base both around authority, and you seem reluctant in explaining the other one.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:48 PM Straw Man is offline  
#157  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
It doesn't reflect your aptitude unless you plan on being on amphetamines everytime some pressure is thrown at your general direction, for starters.

University exams aren't designed to measure how well students respond to pressure. They test the student's knowledge of the course material. Cognitive enhancers aid the student in learning the course material while preparing for the exam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You didn't really answer.

Why are the laws regarding this an authority that one should not abide to, but something like say the university supervising tests is? You're the one that appealed to school authority on why "old fashioned cheating" is bad before I even said the word "law" to you.

Because cheating is bad, it rewards students that don't learn the required material and skews the results. Since universities administer the exams they have the responsibility to ensure that cheating on the exams does not take place.

Learning aids are not cheating, they don't replace learning the material and they don't magically channel the answers into your brain during the exam. Rather, they improve the student's ability to learn in preparation for the exam.

Like I said before, it has nothing to do with whether one should follow authority, but whether one should follow good policy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
The option to school your kids at home is *a tad* different than eating prescription drugs not meant for you :rolleyes

Those differences being?

And by private tutoring I mean things like preparation courses and tutoring that's in addition to the university classes that everyone takes, not home schooling. The infamous SAT prep courses that only affluent students in America get access to, for instance. Professional educators claim that these courses drastically affect the results of the SAT. The least a broke student should be able to do to equal the playing field is pop a pill that helps focus for a few hours to study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Considering both distort the purpose of the test (your potential for learning and handling shit), no, in that aspect it's not really any different at all.

Like I said above, university exams don't measure how well you 'handle shit'.

Also, I see no reason why these drugs would replace learning. They help students learn, not magically fill the gap between what a student knows and needs to know to pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You base both around authority, and you seem reluctant in explaining the other one.

Cheating on exams, bad.
Drug prohibition, bad.

What more explanation is necessary here? Are you being thick on purpose?
Old 01-14-2009, 12:01 AM bingstudent is offline  
#158  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
University exams aren't designed to measure how well students respond to pressure. They test the student's knowledge of the course material. Cognitive enhancers aid the student in learning the course material while preparing for the exam.
Yes and you'll get a GPA that you really aren't worth. It's not that hard to understand, could I interest you in a dose of adderall? Perhaps you can concentrate better and read it.


Quote:
Because cheating is bad, it rewards students that don't learn the required material and skews the results. Since universities administer the exams they have the responsibility to ensure that cheating on the exams does not take place.
Because taking adderll is bad, it rewards students that are too fucking lazy/stupid/unmotivated to work like the others. Since governments well, govern, they have the responsibility to ensure that people popping amphetamines unprescribed and in an unnecessary manner does not take place.


Quote:
Learning aids are not cheating, they don't replace learning the material and they don't magically channel the answers into your brain during the exam. Rather, they improve the student's ability to learn in preparation for the exam.
You're violating the law, and you're gaining an unfair advantage compared to others who do not wish to break laws. That could be the fucking dictionary deifinition of cheating
Quote:
Like I said before, it has nothing to do with whether one should follow authority, but whether one should follow good policy.
And insofar you've defended "good policy" with authority. I guess you could spend some of that pastime to weed out what's good policy and what's not, and what authority is good and what not.


Quote:
Those differences being?

And by private tutoring I mean things like preparation courses and tutoring that's in addition to the university classes that everyone takes, not home schooling. The infamous SAT prep courses that only affluent students in America get access to, for instance. Professional educators claim that these courses drastically affect the results of the SAT. The least a broke student should be able to do to equal the playing field is pop a pill that helps focus for a few hours to study.
Simply put for starters, you're not breaking the law. I don't think anything else is necessary, especially to a fucking lunatic who correlates prep courses to eating amphetamines without a valid prescription. It's like fucking bizarro world here.
Quote:
Like I said above, university exams don't measure how well you 'handle shit'. Also, I see no reason why these drugs would replace learning. They help students learn, not magically fill the gap between what a student knows and needs to know to pass.
They do. Perhaps that's not the purpose the university looks for. Are you saying when people hire other people for jobs, they look for GPA's and shit, to see what kind of an astounding memory one has?



Quote:
Cheating on exams, bad.
Drug prohibition, bad.

What more explanation is necessary here? Are you being thick on purpose?
You're dodging this one on purpose, and it's laughable
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Old 01-14-2009, 02:03 AM Straw Man is offline  
#159  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Yes and you'll get a GPA that you really aren't worth. It's not that hard to understand, could I interest you in a dose of adderall? Perhaps you can concentrate better and read it.

If the student learns the material prior to the test, why isn't the GPA legit?

Maybe you just don't understand what these drugs actually do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Because taking adderll is bad, it rewards students that are too fucking lazy/stupid/unmotivated to work like the others.

Adderall doesn't replace the work, even if you use it you still have to accomplish the same amount of work / learning as every other student that doesn't use it. So how does it reward the lazy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Since governments well, govern, they have the responsibility to ensure that people popping amphetamines unprescribed and in an unnecessary manner does not take place.

The desirability of prohibition is a subject for an entirely different thread, but I can assure you that you are wrong if you think it's beneficial to society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You're violating the law, and you're gaining an unfair advantage compared to others who do not wish to break laws. That could be the fucking dictionary deifinition of cheating :lol

I totally agree, which is why I support changing the laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
And insofar you've defended "good policy" with authority. I guess you could spend some of that pastime to weed out what's good policy and what's not, and what authority is good and what not.

If you want to explain what this has to do with the Adderall question, then go ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Simply put for starters, you're not breaking the law. I don't think anything else is necessary, especially to a fucking lunatic who correlates prep courses to eating amphetamines without a valid prescription. It's like fucking bizarro world here.

Like I said before, I support changing the laws. If you can name any other difference in the two practices, then go right ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
They do. Perhaps that's not the purpose the university looks for.

No they do not. There is no Handling Shit 101 at university. No exam that's given at university is designed to measure how well students 'handle shit'. The exams test what the students have learned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Are you saying when people hire other people for jobs, they look for GPA's and shit, to see what kind of an astounding memory one has?

What are you talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You're dodging this one on purpose, and it's laughable

If you want to attempt an explanation of what exactly it is I'm dodging, then go right ahead. But I have a feeling you cannot, and it's laughable.
Old 01-14-2009, 07:47 AM bingstudent is offline  
#160  

leo
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You're violating the law, and you're gaining an unfair advantage compared to others who do not wish to break laws. That could be the fucking dictionary deifinition of cheating
Precisely. SAT prep courses and the like are all legal opportunities available to anyone who has the money to afford it. In principle, there is no difference between "old fashioned" cheating and the illegal use of drugs to enhance performance. The entire point of cheating is to take advantage of opportunities that others will not take because it's expected that everyone should follow the rules. The illegal use of drugs is against most university policies, and you can expect pretty major consequences (e.g. expulsion from clubs/teams/honor societies etc.) if you're ever discovered to be using them.

In practice, most people have no problem taking Adderall because there is nearly no academic risk involved (similar to how one might copy a classmate's homework if the assignment is not expected to receive much scrutiny), but almost nobody would admit to their professor or fellow students that they aced a test via an Adderall study session, because they know that there is an expectation that the work should be done without the use of performance enhancing drugs. I'm not saying that students who illegally use Adderall are bad people, I've taken it myself, but I recognize that it's not something to be proud of because everyone else is expected to do their work without such an advantage.
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Old 01-14-2009, 11:25 AM leo is offline  
#161  

Spifflicated
 
So where do we stand on those who ARE diagnosed with ADHD taking adderall (or another stim)? I am diagnosed with ADHD. Often, I find myself "zoning out" and such during lectures or even behind the wheel of a car. Other times, I cannot focus on the task at hand because it's like I have more than one inner voice talking (multiple thought processes). It also helps to eliminate various ticks/nervous movements such as the weird blinking tick (you know what I mean) and the ever-bouncing knee..
On adderall, I am freed from these shackles and I am nothing short of focused. However, I by no means feel that this levels the playing field for me and my fellow students. Instead, it is as though I've been given a power considerably more potent than most others. I will consistently ace tests and smash any assignment thrown my way, destroying the curve and dashing the hopes of others. My intelligence has not changed, nor has my motivation or drive.... just my ability to stay on-task and be alert.
I recognize that this has given me a degree of advantage over the majority of students, but I do not feel bad... because without it, I am, in a literal sense, handicapped. My experience with adderall could be compared to giving a blind man new eyes... but with lasers built in.
lol
Old 02-09-2010, 03:23 PM Spifflicated is offline  
#162  

Gibonius
 
Must need a bigger dose, you bumped a year old thread.
Old 02-09-2010, 05:39 PM Gibonius is offline  
#163  

Spifflicated
 
You are correct sir.
Old 02-14-2010, 11:56 PM Spifflicated is offline  
#164  

chuckybob
Mario raped Peach in her fuzzy spot while twisting and twirling his mustache sexylike
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spifflicated View Post
So where do we stand on those who ARE diagnosed with ADHD taking adderall (or another stim)? I am diagnosed with ADHD. Often, I find myself "zoning out" and such during lectures or even behind the wheel of a car. Other times, I cannot focus on the task at hand because it's like I have more than one inner voice talking (multiple thought processes). It also helps to eliminate various ticks/nervous movements such as the weird blinking tick (you know what I mean) and the ever-bouncing knee..
On adderall, I am freed from these shackles and I am nothing short of focused. However, I by no means feel that this levels the playing field for me and my fellow students. Instead, it is as though I've been given a power considerably more potent than most others. I will consistently ace tests and smash any assignment thrown my way, destroying the curve and dashing the hopes of others. My intelligence has not changed, nor has my motivation or drive.... just my ability to stay on-task and be alert.
I recognize that this has given me a degree of advantage over the majority of students, but I do not feel bad... because without it, I am, in a literal sense, handicapped. My experience with adderall could be compared to giving a blind man new eyes... but with lasers built in.
lol

as far as zoning out goes, i do the same thing pretty much constantly. maybe i have undiagnosed ADD, maybe not. what i have seen consistently within my circle of friends though is that people who use adderall abuse adderall. honestly, i think its a substitute for self-control. its not easy for me to focus on something im uninterested in, but if i try i can. i dont think some people want to bother and use ADD as an excuse to get a little bit of a speed fix. and dont kid yourself about it being legal and therefore safe, its basically speed. i dont know a single person who started on it and hasnt escalated.
Old 02-15-2010, 12:02 AM chuckybob is offline  
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