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Arjuna
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
You brilliantly compared asthma inhalers and skin creams (anti-inflammatory steroids) to anabolic steroids (protein synthesis facilitators), if you don't realize how fucking retarded that is perhaps I can introduce you to my good friend Google? And if all goes well with Google you may even meet Wikipedia!!

Go ahead, say that all steroids are the same again... we could use another good laugh at your expense.

This steroid discussion is making my brain hurt.

All steroids are not the same - you are correct. Comparing correct use (i.e. prescribed by a doc for legitimate reason) of corticosteroids and anabolic/androgenic steroids is indeed quite stupid...as the former are far more dangerous. Guess you missed that part of your wiki.

Topical and inhaled corticosteroids tend to the more innocuous side of things (still have side effects, but minimal systemic absorption). But oral and intravenous corticosteroids, which are among the most common medications prescribed, have all manner of systemic dose- and duration-related side effects. Glaucoma, osteoporosis (-> fractures), weight gain, particularly around the neck, face, abdomen (producing "moon facies" and a "buffalo hump" - these are almost hilariously well-known terms in the medical literature), hypertension, cataracts, insulin resistance (--> diabetes), increased infection risk, acne, diminished wound healing, mood swings (up to and including steroid psychosis). Oh yeah, and death if you quit them cold turkey after a protracted course. Real benign stuff, in other words. As you might guess, they work like fucking miracle drugs for a lot of diseases, else we'd never use the damn things. Here's the illustrated version (only change for our discussion here would be adrenal hyperplasia -> adrenal atrophy):


Anabolic/androgenic steroids are typically used as replacement therapy at relatively low doses and have a more benign side effect profile. Their illicit abuse changes things a bit, though in the absence of underlying disease they are mostly going to shut down the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in the guy and cause his balls to atrophy and his tits to grow. The notable exception is orally active C-17α alkylated steroids, which are usually produced illicitly and tank the liver.

In summary: all drugs have side effects, These tend to be more pronounced with illicit / unmonitored use. Steroids (be they corticosteroids or anabolic/androgenic steroids) and amphetamines are certainly no exception to this fact.

Last edited by Arjuna; 12-19-2008 at 06:14 PM..
Old 12-19-2008, 06:09 PM Arjuna is offline  
#61  

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Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
And where, exactly, was it implied that they prescribe it "for shit and giggles?"
You're saying doctors prescribe adderall to increase performance. Well guess what moron, that's not true.
Quote:
At this point I've come to realize you have your name for two reasons:
1.) You're utterly moronic and brainless, a la Straw Man in The Wizard of Oz
2.) You use the straw man fallacy liberally because you're incapable of carrying on a rational debate.

Kudos to whoever gave you that name.
Says the guy who has failed reading comprehension in a dozen threads in a row. You're the new pendragon for people to laugh and point at



Quote:
You brilliantly compared asthma inhalers and skin creams (anti-inflammatory steroids) to anabolic steroids (protein synthesis facilitators), if you don't realize how fucking retarded that is perhaps I can introduce you to my good friend Google? And if all goes well with Google you may even meet Wikipedia!!
I haven't said one fucking word about anti-inflammatory steroids. Good job retard
Quote:
Go ahead, say that all steroids are the same again... we could use another good laugh at your expense.
No one said this either, but then again you're brain damaged so it's ok.
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Last edited by RuHo; 12-19-2008 at 10:19 PM..
Old 12-19-2008, 10:12 PM Straw Man is offline  
#62  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
This steroid discussion is making my brain hurt.

All steroids are not the same - you are correct. Comparing correct use (i.e. prescribed by a doc for legitimate reason) of corticosteroids and anabolic/androgenic steroids is indeed quite stupid...as the former are far more dangerous. Guess you missed that part of your wiki.

Topical and inhaled corticosteroids tend to the more innocuous side of things (still have side effects, but minimal systemic absorption). But oral and intravenous corticosteroids, which are among the most common medications prescribed, have all manner of systemic dose- and duration-related side effects. Glaucoma, osteoporosis (-> fractures), weight gain, particularly around the neck, face, abdomen (producing "moon facies" and a "buffalo hump" - these are almost hilariously well-known terms in the medical literature), hypertension, cataracts, insulin resistance (--> diabetes), increased infection risk, acne, diminished wound healing, mood swings (up to and including steroid psychosis). Oh yeah, and death if you quit them cold turkey after a protracted course. Real benign stuff, in other words. As you might guess, they work like fucking miracle drugs for a lot of diseases, else we'd never use the damn things. Here's the illustrated version (only change for our discussion here would be adrenal hyperplasia -> adrenal atrophy):


Anabolic/androgenic steroids are typically used as replacement therapy at relatively low doses and have a more benign side effect profile. Their illicit abuse changes things a bit, though in the absence of underlying disease they are mostly going to shut down the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis in the guy and cause his balls to atrophy and his tits to grow. The notable exception is orally active C-17α alkylated steroids, which are usually produced illicitly and tank the liver.

In summary: all drugs have side effects, These tend to be more pronounced with illicit / unmonitored use. Steroids (be they corticosteroids or anabolic/androgenic steroids) and amphetamines are certainly no exception to this fact.

For the record (since the fucking retard Ralph either refuses to comment on it because he doesn't understand, or he's just really that stupid):

-he started his yapping about performance enhancing steroids
-he apparently switches to ass cream when it doesn't shoot him in the foot
-he apparently feels the route of administration makes some drugs dangerous and some not
-both "performance enhancing steroids" are used accordingly, and abused inaccordingly, and in that sense there really is no difference
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Old 12-19-2008, 10:18 PM Straw Man is offline  
#63  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
I haven't said one fucking word about anti-inflammatory steroids. Good job retard
Riiiight, then I guess you never said any of this in response to me mentioning skin creams and inhalers (both of which are corticosteroids, AKA anti-inflammatory).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
The method of administration has goddamn fuck all to do with any of it, you fucking imbecile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
You can get equally fucked up using certain inhalers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
They are methods of administration. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're a fucking idiot for:

a)classifying substances through method of administration

I guess some mentally retarded child got your password and started posting on your account?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
And steroids are prescribed to increase performance.

Yeah, that dermititis and acne cream will really make you a better baseball player!!

The whole fucking point (which you failed miserably at grasping) is that only the effects of anabolic steroids can really be compared to those of adderall because the net results are similar in their respective areas. The former provides direct athletic gains by facilitating protein synthesis/muscle growth, the latter provides direct academic gains by facilitating concentration. Now, here is the final attempt at explaining the flaw in that comparison to you

ANYONE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS FOR ATHLETIC GAINS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN A COLLEGE KID USING HIS FRIEND'S ADDERALL.

The bodybuilder / baseball player / power lifter etc. is ABUSING the substance simply to get jacked, which NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER PRESCRIBE IT FOR. The college kid is using the drug for its INTENDED PURPOSE, IN ITS INTENDED DOSAGE AND WITH THE INTENDED RESULTS.

Self-medicating is completely different from substance abuse
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The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 12-19-2008, 10:59 PM Ralph is offline  
#64  

Arjuna
 
I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread. The BC must be slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
ANYONE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS FOR ATHLETIC GAINS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN A COLLEGE KID USING HIS FRIEND'S ADDERALL.

The bodybuilder / baseball player / power lifter etc. is ABUSING the substance simply to get jacked, which NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER PRESCRIBE IT FOR. The college kid is using the drug for its INTENDED PURPOSE, IN ITS INTENDED DOSAGE AND WITH THE INTENDED RESULTS.

Self-medicating is completely different from substance abuse

Indications for prescription of anabolic/androgenic steroids: various endocrinologic disorders.
Indications for prescription of adderall: ADHD, nacrolepsy, occasional unusual off-label diagnoses. Adderall is NOT prescribed for the purpose of enhancing academic performance, Read that again - you seem to be having a very difficult time with this very simple point.

Healthy individual using anabolic/androgenic steroids for athletic gain (or any other reason aside from aforementioned indications for which a licensed professional would prescribe it): abuse.
Healthy individual using adderall for academic gain (or any other reason aside from aforementioned indications for which a licensed professional would prescribe it): abuse.

sigh
Old 12-20-2008, 12:38 AM Arjuna is offline  
#65  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
I don't even know why I'm posting in this thread. The BC must be slow.



Indications for prescription of anabolic/androgenic steroids: various endocrinologic disorders.
Indications for prescription of adderall: ADHD, nacrolepsy, occasional unusual off-label diagnoses. Adderall is NOT prescribed for the purpose of enhancing academic performance, Read that again - you seem to be having a very difficult time with this very simple point.

Healthy individual using anabolic/androgenic steroids for athletic gain (or any other reason aside from aforementioned indications for which a licensed professional would prescribe it): abuse.
Healthy individual using adderall for academic gain (or any other reason aside from aforementioned indications for which a licensed professional would prescribe it): abuse.

sigh

Yes, I acknowledged the fact that adderall is intended to facilitate focus... and what do you think the kids need to focus on, making shoes in the Nike factory?

Replace "academic performance" with "academic productivity" if you want to nitpick semantics
__________________
The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 12-20-2008, 12:53 AM Ralph is offline  
#66  

Arjuna
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Yes, I acknowledged the fact that adderall is intended to facilitate focus... and what do you think the kids need to focus on, making shoes in the Nike factory?

Replace "academic performance" with "academic productivity" if you want to nitpick semantics

I'm not nitpicking you

ADHD is a cluster of behavior that is much more than not being able to focus, and adderall is intended to treat this condition. It is not indicated or "intended" to facilitate "focus" in people already capable of attaining that "focus" on their own. This is a real simple concept. ADHD is a disease. Among psychiatric diagnoses, ADHD has more basic science support/evidence delineating its existence than nearly any other (schizophrenia and bipolar I being the others with that level of rigor backing their descriptions). Adderall and similar drugs are indicated to treat this disease and were created with that intent, not for Joe Lazy to pop the night before a final. Or a deadline at the Nike factory. Or to lose weight. Or whatever other reasons people take these drugs for aside from the medical indications.
Old 12-20-2008, 01:10 AM Arjuna is offline  
#67  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Yes, I acknowledged the fact that adderall is intended to facilitate focus... and what do you think the kids need to focus on, making shoes in the Nike factory?

Replace "academic performance" with "academic productivity" if you want to nitpick semantics
Yes because medication is prescribed to increase academic performance and not you know .... TO TREAT A FUCKING DISORDER


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Old 12-20-2008, 01:12 AM Straw Man is offline  
#68  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
I'm not nitpicking you

ADHD is a cluster of behavior that is much more than not being able to focus, and adderall is intended to treat this condition. It is not indicated or "intended" to facilitate "focus" in people already capable of attaining that "focus" on their own. This is a real simple concept. ADHD is a disease. Among psychiatric diagnoses, ADHD has more basic science support/evidence delineating its existence than nearly any other (schizophrenia and bipolar I being the others with that level of rigor backing their descriptions). Adderall and similar drugs are indicated to treat this disease and were created with that intent, not for Joe Lazy to pop the night before a final. Or a deadline at the Nike factory. Or to lose weight. Or whatever other reasons people take these drugs for aside from the medical indications.

Adderall is prescribed to facilitate focus by minimizing the impulsiveness and distractibility associated with the disorder. One of the main components of ADHD is distractibility / poor attention, and one third of the people diagnosed with ADHD don't even have the hyperactive component. Why would a doctor prescribe medication if it didn't treat the fucking main symptoms of the disorder

More on topic:
A college kid who has no problems focusing won't really gain any benefits from Adderall beyond what they could achieve with coffee or energy drinks - no logical person would consider this cheating, it's just stupid for taking additional health risks to stay awake longer.

A college kid who truly has problems paying attention while studying / in class needs the medication regardless of whether or not they can afford a psychiatrist - wouldn't consider this cheating either, also just stupid for not consulting a doctor to see if another medication would be a more appropriate / less risky solution.

It doesn't cure laziness, so there's no real use where it would be considered "taking the easy way out" as opposed to learning real study habits.
__________________
The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 12-20-2008, 11:03 AM Ralph is offline  
#69  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Riiiight, then I guess you never said any of this in response to me mentioning skin creams and inhalers (both of which are corticosteroids, AKA anti-inflammatory).
Right. Because as you replied to the topic at hand, which was performance enhancing steroids, you had a mental image of Barry Bonds applying some lotion

Quote:
Yeah, that dermititis and acne cream will really make you a better baseball player!!
Apparently it does, since you feel it's relevant to talk about such things when talking about performance enhancing steroids. I don't see why you'd do it otherwise, except for the fact you're a drooling fucking idiot.
Quote:
The whole fucking point (which you failed miserably at grasping) is that only the effects of anabolic steroids can really be compared to those of adderall because the net results are similar in their respective areas. The former provides direct athletic gains by facilitating protein synthesis/muscle growth, the latter provides direct academic gains by facilitating concentration. Now, here is the final attempt at explaining the flaw in that comparison to you
I see, now we've gone back to anabolic steroids.
Quote:
ANYONE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS FOR ATHLETIC GAINS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN A COLLEGE KID USING HIS FRIEND'S ADDERALL.

The bodybuilder / baseball player / power lifter etc. is ABUSING the substance simply to get jacked, which NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER PRESCRIBE IT FOR. The college kid is using the drug for its INTENDED PURPOSE, IN ITS INTENDED DOSAGE AND WITH THE INTENDED RESULTS.
As is the adderall taking student. He is abusing medication outside it's intended purpose. Do you have a fucking point, you imbecile?
Quote:
Self-medicating is completely different from substance abuse
I see that's really fucking fascinating. I guess athletes just get really fucking lucky with all the dosages and shit, it's not like a doctor is planning and supervising any of that shit
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Old 12-20-2008, 11:12 AM Straw Man is offline  
#70  

Ralph
 
Straw Man you're miles off topic and so hopelessly confused it's not even worth anyone responding to you in regard to any of these subjects anymore. Clearly you're not capable of understanding and participating in a debate with multiple facets where more than one thread of argument is being carried on - especially since you've demonstrated you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject matter and you're not willing to do 30 seconds worth of research on your own to figure it out.

It's pitiful that even your most sincere attempt at a worthwhile reply is only equivalent to outright trolling because you lack the necessary comprehension, but at this point it's impossible to justify responding to you after so many failed attempts to simplify things for your benefit
__________________
The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 12-20-2008, 12:04 PM Ralph is offline  
#71  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Straw Man you're miles off topic and so hopelessly confused it's not even worth anyone responding to you in regard to any of these subjects anymore. Clearly you're not capable of understanding and participating in a debate with multiple facets where more than one thread of argument is being carried on - especially since you've demonstrated you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject matter and you're not willing to do 30 seconds worth of research on your own to figure it out.
This ladies and gentlemen, coming from the fucking idiot who blabbers about shit people take for rash, when he started "refuting" similarities in anabolic steroid usage. Fuck you, self-owned, keep yapping, it's rewarding.
Quote:
It's pitiful that even your most sincere attempt at a worthwhile reply is only equivalent to outright trolling because you lack the necessary comprehension, but at this point it's impossible to justify responding to you after so many failed attempts to simplify things for your benefit
Just because you're probably a fucking loser that probably eats shit for tests doesn't make it any more or less ethically questionable. Go make some rash argument you fucking imbecile
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Old 12-20-2008, 12:25 PM Straw Man is offline  
#72  

Arjuna
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Adderall is prescribed to facilitate focus by minimizing the impulsiveness and distractibility associated with the disorder. One of the main components of ADHD is distractibility / poor attention, and one third of the people diagnosed with ADHD don't even have the hyperactive component. Why would a doctor prescribe medication if it didn't treat the fucking main symptoms of the disorder

Adderall clearly does treat the core symptomatology in ADHD and enhances the ability of those affected individuals to concentrate on tasks. But you're missing a fundamental concept here and I don't know how else to explain it other than the what I've already said in my last three posts. Adderall will also "switch on" the ability to intensely concentrate in healthy individuals. But its indication for prescription is to treat disease (ADHD) partly characterized by an inability to concentrate, not to simply enhance concentration in anyone. Again, it is prescribed to treat a disease, not as a generic concentration enhancer. I don't know if you think I'm playing a semantic game here or what but this is fundamental to this entire discussion and you don't seem to be able to grasp it.

Quote:
More on topic:
A college kid who has no problems focusing won't really gain any benefits from Adderall beyond what they could achieve with coffee or energy drinks - no logical person would consider this cheating, it's just stupid for taking additional health risks to stay awake longer.

A college kid who truly has problems paying attention while studying / in class needs the medication regardless of whether or not they can afford a psychiatrist - wouldn't consider this cheating either, also just stupid for not consulting a doctor to see if another medication would be a more appropriate / less risky solution.

It doesn't cure laziness, so there's no real use where it would be considered "taking the easy way out" as opposed to learning real study habits.
Have you been to college and/or ever seen someone who didn't carry a diagnosis of ADHD use adderall or similar drug? These medications are much more potent than caffeine and work in very different ways. Caffeine will keep you awake, but it does not provide the motivation- and concentration-enhancement that amphetamines do. Look, for example, at another drug - modafinil (Provigil), recently on the market to treat shift work sleep and several other disorders. It is a nonamphetamine that works on different neurotransmitters and different neural pathways than amphetamine. Its effect is to promote wakefulness but it also lacks as pronounced an effect on motivation and concentration. Although it is abused to some extent on college campuses, adderall and similar amphetamine-based stimulants are far more frequently used due to the motivation and concentration effects their use confers.

Adderall is clearly used by otherwise normal people so they can "switch on" a pharmacologic-induced period of intense concentration/motivation. Usually as an alternative to more measured and structured studying requiring more discipline. Rather than take a couple hours of good self-motivated study time throughout a week before a test, many will pop an amphetamine and go into machine-mode the night before. The material they need to know is clearly within their grasp without the amphetamine (barring ADHD, etc), but this route exposes them to potential side effects of the drug.

And people should not self-diagnose. It is unethical for doctors to self-diagnose and self-treat, and they know a fuck more on the subject than Dan Freshman worried about his bio 101 final. Go look at the last 29384 threads in the BC on the subject of "Do I have ADHD!!!1" and see if you think these are people that should be "self-medicating." And as for your money-is-tight argument - almost all universities offer free access to mental health centers where reliable diagnosis and treatment can be obtained.

I'm about done with this thread. If you think amphetamines should be provided to all, are ethical to use, should be fortified into WonderBread, or whatever - that's your opinion and you're entitled. Just knock off the part where you try to seem like you know what you're talking about.
Old 12-20-2008, 12:50 PM Arjuna is offline  
#73  

ry_goody
 
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neither amphetamines or steroids are good....
Old 12-21-2008, 12:29 AM ry_goody is offline  
#74  

jkrowling
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ry_goody View Post
becoming dependent on a substance is not bad if the substance is good for you

The issue with drug addiction is not the fact people get addicted. It's that they do not exhaust all the potential plants and substances to discover which one is the best for them and would be ok to form a life-long relationship with.

i'm working under the umbrella of this thread, where steroids and amphetamines are the drugs.

i think as your life changes, your relationship with drugs changes. i don't think there's a healthy relationship you can form with any drug that you can carry through with any intensity through your whole life. you're always changing; you need to change.
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:02 PM jkrowling is offline  
#75  

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