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justaddcheese
 
Ok. First off, the ultimate combination is a night's worth of adderall AND a full pot of coffee. In any case, I feel that it is arguably unethical, but it's not cheating....if that makes sense. Yes, you should sit down and do your work sober, but adderall simply makes it easier. It doesn't do the work for you, and it's doesn't make you permanently smarter.

It's mostly good for reading mass amounts of text and making study notes of readings (in my opinion). The adderall just makes the text more bearable so that one can focus better. It's not like I wouldn't do the work if don't take adderall, it just makes it easier.

Again, it's really only beneficial for short-term success (ie undergrad finals), and won't let you learn everything in the course if you havent somewhat kept up with the work all term.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:08 PM justaddcheese is offline  
#76  

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Tom
 
this argument seems like claiming that a rock star who drinks and smokes pot shouldnt make any money because he is using it to enhance his/ her creativity instead of earning it like... creed.

who cares what it takes for people to get their work done so long as it gets done (by their own hard work).
Old 12-21-2008, 08:24 PM Tom is offline  
#77  

Figment
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First off to have any sort of intelligent discussion you have to come to the conclusion that the drugs themselves have no moral implications, their application and use/abuse of a drug is what determines any sort of moral or ethical concerns.

First off steroids arent illegal because they increase physical performance, they are illegal because how seriously they can fuck up someone if they are used improperly by uneducated people. The primary reason for trying to keep steroids out of professional sports is not for a level playing field, but so people do not see steroid use as a means to a end. If steroid use was open and accepted in professional sports many would pursue them in the quest to compete at that level, most likely not under proper doctor supervision or with the medical knowledge to keep themselves from permanent injury.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a graduate student and have a prescription for adderall. To get at the key point of does adderall change intelligence or merely help memorization. I would argue it does both, memorization is the foundation for any sort of growth in academia. You cannot even begin to comprehend higher level concepts without a firm foundation in the fundamentals. Foundation in the fundamentals comes primarily from memorization and use of the knowledge. Of course everyone will reach a level where they cannot advance, but the point of the drug is to remove barriers from reaching that intellectual cap. For many people the barrier is focus and even those without a medical condition can benefit from increased focus.

Now for my personal use and thoughts on it. Does it fundamentally change my abilities?? Of course not, but when I read 500 pages a week of material it really helps. Especially when material tends to overlap and gets repetitive.Does it help in my understanding of the material?? Yes, being well focused when reading all of the material and having a firm grasp of it helps understand more difficult concepts when they are presented. Ethically speaking I see no problem with its use, I function quite well off the medication, I just function even better on it. Im sure I could get by without it, but why? Its available, its $10 a month for me, and has a positive effect on my legitimate goals. To not take it would be irresponsible and just a handicap compared to those around me who do.
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:40 PM Figment is offline  
#78  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
ANYONE USING ANABOLIC STEROIDS FOR ATHLETIC GAINS IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN A COLLEGE KID USING HIS FRIEND'S ADDERALL.

The bodybuilder / baseball player / power lifter etc. is ABUSING the substance simply to get jacked,

Wrong. Substance abuse is the overindulgence in a drug to the point where it gives the user lasting detrimental health effects. Steroid use becomes abuse in very few instances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
which NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER PRESCRIBE IT FOR.

Wrong. Doctors prescribe it all the time. Where do you think athletes get it? They either go to a doctor will to give the prescription or they go to Mexico where it's OTC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
The college kid is using the drug for its INTENDED PURPOSE,

Wrong. The intended purpose of Adderall is the treatment of ADHD and/or narcolepsy. It is not intended to be a chemical study aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
IN ITS INTENDED DOSAGE

Wrong. Students using Adderall to study and write papers during crunch time typically use a far higher than intended dose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
AND WITH THE INTENDED RESULTS.

Wrong. The intended result of Adderall is ADHD/narcolepsy treatment, not getting good grades.

So everything about your supposedly nuanced argumentative 'distinction' is utterly wrong. You are retarded.
Old 12-22-2008, 02:38 PM bingstudent is offline  
#79  

Soybomb
 
I love Arjuna posts, they're unusually good for genmay.

I can't imagine anyone who has used caffeine, provigil, and adderall not being able to tell they work in different ways. If I wanted a boost for a late night of studying there is no question to me that the amphetamine would be far and away the choice.

Personally I don't have a problem with it. It seems like the same sort of selective nonsense that has made american society accept alcohol and not pot that has made it accept drinking a pot of coffee and not taking an amphetamine. Of course it isn't ideal, probably shouldn't become a regular thing, and it would be better if the user just fixed their schedule and study habits but we all know that sometimes people find themselves in positions to the contrary and they will be using something. Might as well let them have the choice of making it the most effective one. Maybe this should be called drug abuse, but it seems like an adult shoud be able to decide for themselves if they want to take the risks of using it.
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Last edited by Soybomb; 12-22-2008 at 04:14 PM..
Old 12-22-2008, 04:03 PM Soybomb is offline  
#80  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
snip
Riiiiight, use the illegal prescription of steroids as support for your argument that they're "intended" for athletic purposes. That's like me picking up a pair of scissors then stabbing you in the face and saying "SEE!! MURDER IS CLEARLY THE INTENDED USE OF THIS OBJECT!!"

When you understand the fact that ADHD is still primarily an attention disorder and steroids are not intended for athletic gains it may be worth addressing your sorry excuse for a rebuttal, but since you're not even capable of approaching this topic correctly I would only be derailing the thread further by attempting to correct your overwhelming misunderstanding of the debate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Wrong. Students using Adderall to study and write papers during crunch time typically use a far higher than intended dose.

Love to see the source for that info... let me guess, bingstudent's ass?
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Last edited by Ralph; 12-22-2008 at 04:56 PM..
Old 12-22-2008, 04:50 PM Ralph is offline  
#81  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Riiiiight, use the illegal prescription of steroids as support for your argument that they're "intended" for athletic purposes. That's like me picking up a pair of scissors then stabbing you in the face and saying "SEE!! MURDER IS CLEARLY THE INTENDED USE OF THIS OBJECT!!" :tard

I never said anything vaguely like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
When you understand the fact that ADHD is still primarily an attention disorder and steroids are not intended for athletic gains it may be worth addressing your sorry excuse for a rebuttal, but since you're not even capable of approaching this topic correctly I would only be derailing the thread further by attempting to correct your overwhelming misunderstanding of the debate.

You don't get to act like you know what you're talking about when you're not even willing to address my post point by point. You aren't even able to explain the argument I've made that you're attempting to respond to. All you've succeeding in doing at this point is convince me, and everyone else reading the thread, even further that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
lol: Love to see the source for that info... let me guess, bingstudent's ass?

I'm not motivated to look up data findings right now but if you've ever actually been around its use or experienced it you'd know that students generally dose 20-30mg every few hours which is far higher than the average prescribed dosage of 10mg/d.
Old 12-22-2008, 05:39 PM bingstudent is offline  
#82  

ry_goody
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrowling View Post
i'm working under the umbrella of this thread, where steroids and amphetamines are the drugs.

i think as your life changes, your relationship with drugs changes. i don't think there's a healthy relationship you can form with any drug that you can carry through with any intensity through your whole life. you're always changing; you need to change.

i dunno. I know alot of old dudes who still cherish mushrooms and cactus.
Old 12-22-2008, 06:58 PM ry_goody is offline  
#83  

ry_goody
 
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Heres a good reason why one should not use amphetamines.

Without amphetamines, this would not exist.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.


I don't care if it gets you through college and helps you start a family. If that same drug can produce that music video, it's simply not good.
Old 12-22-2008, 07:00 PM ry_goody is offline  
#84  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Riiiiight, use the illegal prescription of steroids as support for your argument that they're "intended" for athletic purposes. That's like me picking up a pair of scissors then stabbing you in the face and saying "SEE!! MURDER IS CLEARLY THE INTENDED USE OF THIS OBJECT!!"
I never said anything vaguely like this.
This looks like your name to me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Doctors prescribe it all the time. Where do you think athletes get it? They either go to a doctor will to give the prescription or they go to Mexico where it's OTC.

The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 added anabolic steroids to the federal schedule of controlled substances, criminalizing their non-medical use by those seeking muscle growth for athletic or cosmetic enhancement.

The 2004 act expanded the list of 23 steroids to 59 and eliminated the requirement to prove a steroid promoted muscle growth for it to be placed on schedule III of the controlled substance act.

1.) You're a lying sack of shit.
2.) You're fucking ignorant.

Quote:
I'm not motivated to look up data findings right now but if you've ever actually been around its use or experienced it you'd know that students generally dose 20-30mg every few hours which is far higher than the average prescribed dosage of 10mg/d.
A MINIMUM dose is 5-10mg (young child's dosage) with 30mg typically being the highest prescription (appropriate for a teen or adult). I know others who have taken it both with and without a script and I've taken it myself, prescribed, so I've spoken extensively with a psychiatrist about it. 10mg / day was the starting dosage just to make sure I had no unusual reaction... which brings us to our final point:

3.) You're too lazy to support your own fucking argument with anything other than anecdotal bullshit

So don't expect me to devote more than the 60 seconds it took to expose how idiotic and hypocritical you are
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:44 PM Ralph is offline  
#85  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 added anabolic steroids to the federal schedule of controlled substances, criminalizing their non-medical use by those seeking muscle growth for athletic or cosmetic enhancement.

The 2004 act expanded the list of 23 steroids to 59 and eliminated the requirement to prove a steroid promoted muscle growth for it to be placed on schedule III of the controlled substance act.

1.) You're a lying sack of shit.
2.) You're fucking ignorant.

or it's 3.) You can't fucking read. No one said doctors prescribe it for muscle growth, just that doctors prescribe it all the time to people looking for muscle growth and athletic enhancement. Protip: people break the law. What's so hard to grasp about this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
A MINIMUM dose is 5-10mg (young child's dosage) with 30mg typically being the highest prescription (appropriate for a teen or adult). I know others who have taken it both with and without a script and I've taken it myself, prescribed, so I've spoken extensively with a psychiatrist about it. 10mg / day was the starting dosage just to make sure I had no unusual reaction... which brings us to our final point:

I don't disagree with any of this. I guess this is just another example of you not being able to read because I typed that college students are taking 30mg every few hours, not once a day, meaning they are dosing beyond the prescribed usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
3.) You're too lazy to support your own fucking argument with anything other than anecdotal bullshit

Except your own anecdote did nothing but prove my claim that college students are overdosing Adderall. I don't understand why you need to be a dick considering you (seemingly) agree with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
So don't expect me to devote more than the 60 seconds it took to expose how idiotic and hypocritical you are :tardtard:

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Old 12-22-2008, 08:55 PM bingstudent is offline  
#86  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
No one said doctors prescribe it for muscle growth, just that doctors prescribe it all the time to people looking for muscle growth...

Jesus fucking christ I just vomited all over myself when I read this and realized how truly stupid you are - this statement must put you about 80 points below brain dead

Can't finish reading the rest of your post because it's covered in my dinner.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:59 PM Ralph is offline  
#87  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Jesus fucking christ I just vomited all over myself when I read this and realized how truly stupid you are - this statement must put you about 80 points below brain dead

Can't finish reading the rest of your post because it's covered in my dinner.

Conveniently you clip the rest of my statement which is where I said that doctors prescribe it this way all the time BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND THEIR PATIENTS ARE WILLING TO PAY THEM TO BREAK THE LAW.

Holy fuck why are you so fucking retarded?
Old 12-22-2008, 09:52 PM bingstudent is offline  
#88  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Conveniently you clip the rest of my statement which is where I said that doctors prescribe it this way all the time BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW AND THEIR PATIENTS ARE WILLING TO PAY THEM TO BREAK THE LAW.

Congratulations, you're back to square one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Riiiiight, use the illegal prescription of steroids as support for your argument that they're "intended" for athletic purposes. That's like me picking up a pair of scissors then stabbing you in the face and saying "SEE!! MURDER IS CLEARLY THE INTENDED USE OF THIS OBJECT!!"



Do you need this much help in school? You must read everything eighty-fucking-billion times before you comprehend it... have to hold your hand all the way through an argument.
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The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 12-22-2008, 10:00 PM Ralph is offline  
#89  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Congratulations, you're back to square one:

You're an idiot, you take a simple concept and prove again and again that you are unable to grasp it.

I don't even think you know if you disagree with me but you continue to push on like an asshole with nothing to prove.

Anyway, here's my opinion on this, feel free to disagree:

1) There's nothing intrinsically harmful about any type of performance enhancing drug. They should all be legal for anyone to consume.

2) It's reasonable for sports organizations to limit the use of performance enhancing substances by the players. That limitation is reasonable because sports and games are expected to have some semblance of fairness, which requires an even playing field, or as close to even as possible.

3) Academics is not a game, it's life, as such it's unfair. Colleges and universities have an obligation to prevent students from cheating on a test. Using nootropics to prepare is not cheating on the test.

In games and sports it is better to err on the side of more restrictions that result in more fairness. In life it is better to err on the side of less restrictions even if the result is less fairness.
Old 12-22-2008, 10:16 PM bingstudent is offline  
#90  

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