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Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
No doctor legitimately prescribes Adderall to kids without ADD to help them study either you imbecile. Healthy functional people using Adderall as a study aid
(prescribed by a doctor under false pretenses or bought off the street) is exactly the same as people with normal testosterone level using anabolics to get bigger.

Wrong again, and already covered.

Adderall is intended to increase your ability to focus, so despite not having a script for it the people using it illegally are still using it for the intended purpose. Also, it still doesn't increase your intelligence.

Anabolic steroids are not intended to increase your ability to play sports or attain a bodybuilder physique - so their use for these goals is both illegal and unintended, not to mention it carries greater risk / more severe side effects. Unlike adderall it actually has a direct impact on your ability to compete with others since muscle in many sports can be equated to intelligence in academics. Now if it just motivated you to workout more that would be completely different... then you might have a valid comparison to adderall.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:31 PM Ralph is offline  
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Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Wrong again, and already covered.

Adderall is intended to increase your ability to focus, so despite not having a script for it the people using it illegally are still using it for the intended purpose.

Anabolic steroids are not intended to increase your ability to play sports or attain a bodybuilder physique - so their use for these goals is both illegal and unintended, not to mention it carries greater risk and more severe side effects.

Nonsense. Adderall is intended to increase focus in people without the ability to focus naturally. Anabolics are legally prescribed to increase testosterone levels in people without the ability to produce enough on their own. A consequence (usually intended) is increased muscularity. Abusing steroids, by using them when your test levels are already high enough, is exactly the same as using Adderall when you're already capable of concentrating adequately. Both have legitimate purposes but are abused by normal healthy people seeking performance enhancement.

This is neglecting the historical fact that many steroids were in fact designed to raise testosterone to extremely high levels for bodybuilding or athletic enhancement.
Old 01-10-2009, 02:57 PM Gibonius is offline  
#107  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Nonsense. Adderall is intended to increase focus in people without the ability to focus naturally. Anabolics are legally prescribed to increase testosterone levels in people without the ability to produce enough on their own. A consequence (usually intended) is increased muscularity. Abusing steroids, by using them when your test levels are already high enough, is exactly the same as using Adderall when you're already capable of concentrating adequately. Both have legitimate purposes but are abused by normal healthy people seeking performance enhancement.

Adderall will not allow you to surpass levels of concentration attainable by a normal, healthy human being. Steroids will allow you to attain physical growth that is otherwise impossible in a normal human being.

More importantly, you're still ignoring the fact that their effects on competitiveness in their respective areas are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Adderall will not make you smarter, it won't increase your ability to grasp complex material, and it won't make you a better test taker. Steroids directly impact your ability to compete in an athletic activity by increasing your strength - which would only make it comparable if adderall increased your intelligence.

As far as supplements for sports go I would probably put something like Nitric Oxide products on the same level as adderall... whatever the ones are that give you more energy to workout but don't actually directly increase your muscle mass.
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Old 01-10-2009, 03:54 PM Ralph is offline  
#108  

Gibonius
 
Steroids don't directly increase your strength. They allow you to recover more quickly from workouts, essentially allowing you to train more often and get stronger fast. Without a proper training regiment and diet, you'll still never get huge or have any significant advantage in sports. If you sit around on your ass, you can jam as many needles full of test into your ass as you want and you won't get any stronger.

Certainly steroids can be pushed much farther in terms of giving the user a larger final advantage compared to the Adderall for studying scenario, but they are both "training" aids that give the user a significant advantage in preparation for the event in question.
Old 01-10-2009, 04:49 PM Gibonius is offline  
#109  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Gibonius, you must be one of the only people on this forum that has the patience to refute the make-believe experts when they start to ramble. Kudos to you.
Old 01-10-2009, 05:25 PM bingstudent is offline  
#110  

bingstudent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
bingstudent: Cites the illegal prescription of anabolic steroids for recreational use in support of his argument that it's medically valid :lol

Good job making things up, and you call the other guy strawman.

Anyway, I have a post earlier in the thread that bullet points my stance on the issue, if you want to to discuss it go right ahead but you're just being silly at this point.
Old 01-10-2009, 05:27 PM bingstudent is offline  
#111  

Ralph
 
Erased the first part because we agree there, I know you still need to work out intensely to gain the benefit of steroids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Certainly steroids can be pushed much farther in terms of giving the user a larger final advantage compared to the Adderall for studying scenario, but they are both "training" aids that give the user a significant advantage in preparation for the event in question.

The problem with steroids is this: EVERYONE using them for athletic purposes clearly does NOT need them, the only time they're used for muscle growth these days is with chronic wasting conditions: HIV / AIDS and some cancers, all of which have very clear, objective diagnoses. I don't think there are any athletes competing while suffering from a chronic wasting condition.

The people using Adderall may actually suffer from some degree of attention deficit, probably what prompted them to seek it in the first place. If you ever talk to a psychiatrist about it you'll learn there are a ton of gray areas when it comes to diagnosing ADHD, and basically it can boil down to how sufficient the patient feels their concentration is.

Point being: The adderall users are typically self-medicating (yes I know plenty take it to get high), while the users of steroids for athletic purposes are ALL abusing / using it for unintended purposes.



edit: bingstudent you're a fucking moron, in post #79 you mention doctors prescribing it to athletes. Look up the laws, fucktard.
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Last edited by Ralph; 01-10-2009 at 06:26 PM..
Old 01-10-2009, 06:20 PM Ralph is offline  
#112  

Straw Man
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"The people using Adderall may actually suffer from some degree of attention deficit, probably what prompted them to seek it in the first place."


This is how lost he is

and yes, doctors do prescribe it to athletes. Do you think professional track and field athletes, as an example, buy their steroids from Igor at the gym?


Why don't you make yourself useful and eat a pound of adderall
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Old 01-10-2009, 07:52 PM Straw Man is offline  
#113  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
The problem with steroids is this: EVERYONE using them for athletic purposes clearly does NOT need them, the only time they're used for muscle growth these days is with chronic wasting conditions: HIV / AIDS and some cancers, all of which have very clear, objective diagnoses. I don't think there are any athletes competing while suffering from a chronic wasting condition.
Not really true. Professional and NCAA athletes can't use steroids because their sports prohibit them. However, there are plenty of "anti-aging clinics" that will prescribe steroids to men whose testosterone levels are decreasing as they age. Many of those men play sports at some level or another, and regardless, increasing their test levels is going to prevent muscle loss and increase their muscle mass if they workout.

Quote:
The people using Adderall may actually suffer from some degree of attention deficit, probably what prompted them to seek it in the first place. If you ever talk to a psychiatrist about it you'll learn there are a ton of gray areas when it comes to diagnosing ADHD, and basically it can boil down to how sufficient the patient feels their concentration is.
Or they could just be lazy fucks who don't want to start studying early enough or develop real study skills.
Quote:
Point being: The adderall users are typically self-medicating (yes I know plenty take it to get high), while the users of steroids for athletic purposes are ALL abusing / using it for unintended purposes.
That's entirely speculative. Many people think ADHD is vastly overdiagnosed and many of the people who have prescriptions for Adderall and others don't really need them.

Quote:
edit: bingstudent you're a fucking moron, in post #79 you mention doctors prescribing it to athletes. Look up the laws, fucktard.
Nearly all of the professional athletes that have gotten busted for steroid use (and HGH) had a prescription from some "aging specialist" doctor. There are many, many drugs that are prescribed at the doctor's discretion that are open for abuse.

Hell, I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. I had to get a waiver from the NCAA to compete while taking insulin, as it's strongly anabolic. Now, I do need the stuff to live, but I also know how to use it to gain muscle and have no qualms about doing so (I no longer compete, and wasn't aware of these techniques while I was).
Old 01-10-2009, 08:04 PM Gibonius is offline  
#114  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Not really true. Professional and NCAA athletes can't use steroids because their sports prohibit them.
Yes, and they're prohibited for a reason... that's the entire point of this thread. They provide a distinct, unfair gain that would put normal / healthy human beings at a disadvantage.

Quote:
However, there are plenty of "anti-aging clinics" that will prescribe steroids to men whose testosterone levels are decreasing as they age. Many of those men play sports at some level or another, and regardless, increasing their test levels is going to prevent muscle loss and increase their muscle mass if they workout.
Irrelevant, the bodybuilders and competitive athletes on the professional level who use steroids are doing so with full knowledge that they do not suffer from any sort of testosterone imbalance.


Quote:
That's entirely speculative. Many people think ADHD is vastly overdiagnosed and many of the people who have prescriptions for Adderall and others don't really need them.
Regardless of whether or not it's overdiagnosed (which I agree it most likely is) adderall still does NOT make you more intelligent. It won't give you any sort of advantage that a healthy person wouldn't otherwise have.


Quote:
Nearly all of the professional athletes that have gotten busted for steroid use (and HGH) had a prescription from some "aging specialist" doctor. There are many, many drugs that are prescribed at the doctor's discretion that are open for abuse.

Hell, I'm an insulin dependent diabetic. I had to get a waiver from the NCAA to compete while taking insulin, as it's strongly anabolic. Now, I do need the stuff to live, but I also know how to use it to gain muscle and have no qualms about doing so (I no longer compete, and wasn't aware of these techniques while I was).
All you're saying is this: Steroids are often abused and can illegally be obtained.

Big deal, we all know that already
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The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 01-11-2009, 12:29 AM Ralph is offline  
#115  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Yes, and they're prohibited for a reason... that's the entire point of this thread. They provide a distinct, unfair gain that would put normal / healthy human beings at a disadvantage.
Adderall gives healthy people an advantage in focusing over those who do not have it.
Quote:
Irrelevant, the bodybuilders and competitive athletes on the professional level who use steroids are doing so with full knowledge that they do not suffer from any sort of testosterone imbalance.
Most kids who abuse Adderall to study do not believe they have ADHD.
Quote:
Regardless of whether or not it's overdiagnosed (which I agree it most likely is) adderall still does NOT make you more intelligent. It won't give you any sort of advantage that a healthy person wouldn't otherwise have.
Adderall lets you focus more readily on "training" to increase your factual knowledge and comprehension of the subject. If you're completely inept, it won't make you smart enough to pass, but it will allow a lazy person to cram enough material to get by. You are rarely evaluated on intelligence, and studying will allow nearly anyone of average intelligence to gain the required knowledge (god knows the average pre-med student is not a shining star of intelligence and gets by by working incredibly hard). Adderall makes this easier.

Steroids will not all an uncoordinated, weak fucker to become an excellent athlete either. Neither are panaceas, they allow anyone to achieve more than they would have been able to without chemical assistance.

Quote:
All you're saying is this: Steroids are often abused and can illegally be obtained.

Big deal, we all know that already
Adderall is often abused and can be readily obtained.

We know that one too
Old 01-11-2009, 06:12 AM Gibonius is offline  
#116  

bingstudent
I am an idiot!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
edit: bingstudent you're a fucking moron, in post #79 you mention doctors prescribing it to athletes. Look up the laws, fucktard.

Most athletes aren't buying it mail order from Mexico. Where do you think they get it from?
Old 01-11-2009, 07:45 AM bingstudent is offline  
#117  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Most athletes aren't buying it mail order from Mexico. Where do you think they get it from?

I can go find a doctor who will prescribe oxycontin so I can get high off it, does that mean the intended purpose of oxycontin is to get high? No. Now apply that to your stupid fucking example about doctors illegally prescribing steroids to athletes and you'll realize you're still an idiot

I can't believe everything has to be broken down step by step for you to understand, you're literally fucking retarded aren't you? There's no reason you should ever post in the pit because you're not capable of contributing anything useful - you're just a troll.
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The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 01-11-2009, 11:40 AM Ralph is offline  
#118  

Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Adderall lets you focus more readily on "training" to increase your factual knowledge and comprehension of the subject. If you're completely inept, it won't make you smart enough to pass, but it will allow a lazy person to cram enough material to get by. You are rarely evaluated on intelligence, and studying will allow nearly anyone of average intelligence to gain the required knowledge (god knows the average pre-med student is not a shining star of intelligence and gets by by working incredibly hard). Adderall makes this easier.

Steroids will not all an uncoordinated, weak fucker to become an excellent athlete either. Neither are panaceas, they allow anyone to achieve more than they would have been able to without chemical assistance.

Have to disagree here. Steroids will increase your performance directly and are capable of pushing it beyond what you would be able to achieve if you were perfectly healthy - when it comes to things like bodybuilding / powerlifting this is an extremely unfair advantage, same goes for other sports but to a lesser extent because like you said they involve more coordination and not just size or brute strength.

The point that adderall isn't capable of allowing you to focus better than a 100% healthy human being also still stands, since the same cannot be said of steroids.

I still think the only valid comparison for adderall would a supplement that gives you more energy for your workouts - the impact of steroids on your athletic performance is too direct to be compared to a study aid that doesn't boost intelligence.
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The above post is an explicit representation of the views and opinions of CrowdGather. We at CrowdGather also support all medical advice contained herein and do recommend "trying it at home."
Old 01-11-2009, 11:47 AM Ralph is offline  
#119  

sun_ofa_beach
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph View Post

The point that adderall isn't capable of allowing you to focus better than a 100% healthy human being also still stands, since the same cannot be said of steroids.

Uh..ok so I didn't really read the entire thread but who care these "self-medicating" people then. Are they people suffering from lack of concentration don't not diagnosed with ADD/ADHD?
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:08 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
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