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Ralph
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sun_ofa_beach View Post
Uh..ok so I didn't really read the entire thread but who are these "self-medicating" people then. Are they people suffering from lack of concentration don't not diagnosed with ADD/ADHD?

For the sake of this thread I guess we're assuming some have ADHD but never consulted a psychiatrist while others don't have ADHD at all - there are undoubtedly people from both categories taking it.

Either way, since it can't boost your concentration beyond what a healthy human being is capable of there shouldn't really be any objections. It doesn't give an unfair advantage that would otherwise be unavailable and it doesn't increase your intelligence.

edit: Also, the condition only has one name - ADHD. Even people who don't qualify as "hyperactive" are still diagnosed as having ADHD.
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:42 PM Ralph is offline  
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sun_ofa_beach
 
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Either way, since it can't boost your concentration beyond what a healthy human being is capable of there shouldn't really be any objections. It doesn't give an unfair advantage that would otherwise be unavailable and it doesn't increase your intelligence.

What I have doubts with is this statement. First of all, I'm guessing people's ability to concentrate falls along a distribution. It's not like it's a binary/two categories of people - either you lack the ability to focus, or are perfectly capable of focusing. That is why I'm led to believe that the drug will benefit almost everyone to some extent.
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:52 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
#122  

Ralph
 
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What I have doubts with is this statement. First of all, I'm guessing people's ability to concentrate falls along a distribution. It's not like it's a binary/two categories of people - either you lack the ability to focus, or are perfectly capable of focusing. That is why I'm led to believe that the drug will benefit almost everyone to some extent.

Yeah, evaluating someone's ability to pay attention is pretty subjective and there are definitely varying degrees but the easiest way to put it in perspective is probably to think of it like this:

Steve is 100% healthy and has no problems with concentration. If he sits down to read 50 pages he won't turn away from the book until he's done reading all 50 pages.

Mike has problems concentrating. After every 5 pages he gets distracted and looks away from the book for a few minutes.


If Mike takes adderall the most it will do is allow him to finish reading all 50 pages without turning away, it's not going to increase his ability to comprehend the material or make him a faster reader - it simply allows him to more effectively apply the skills he already possesses. No amount of adderall is going to allow him to gain more from those 50 pages than Steve could.
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Old 01-11-2009, 12:59 PM Ralph is offline  
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sun_ofa_beach
 
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Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Yeah, evaluating someone's ability to pay attention is pretty subjective and there are definitely varying degrees but the easiest way to put it in perspective is probably to think of it like this:

Steve is 100% healthy and has no problems with concentration. If he sits down to read 50 pages he won't turn away from the book until he's done reading all 50 pages.

Mike has problems concentrating. After every 5 pages he gets distracted and looks away from the book for a few minutes.


If Mike takes adderall the most it will do is allow him to finish reading all 50 pages without turning away, it's not going to increase his ability to comprehend the material or make him a faster reader - it simply allows him to more effectively apply the skills he already possesses. No amount of adderall is going to allow him to gain more from those 50 pages than Steve could.

Say, a pretty decent student can read 50 pages but will look away, surf the net, etc, every or 40 or so minutes. I'm guessing this perosn will still benefit from the drug. And I'm guessing this level of focus can be seen by 50% of people (from my observation, of course - no proof here)

Now, won't this drug be giving him an advantage over, say, someone like Mike in your scenario? You are only judging what's "fair" in the argument stating that intellect, the ability to comprehend etc, does not get boosted. Shouldn't the ability to focus be just one of the qualities among intellect, memory, etc in academic performance?
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:08 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
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Ralph
 
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Originally Posted by sun_ofa_beach View Post
Say, a pretty decent student can read 50 pages but will look away, surf the net, etc, every or 40 or so minutes. I'm guessing this perosn will still benefit from the drug. And I'm guessing this level of focus can be seen by 50% of people (from my observation, of course - no proof here)
Sounds about right, but if they can't prevent that from happening on their own they're not exactly wrong to take adderall - although such a small degree of distraction might not even be a factor to begin with. A healthy individual should be able to overcome the distractions without help. Someone who tries to overcome them but can't succeed without assistance isn't gaining an unfair advantage by using medication - it allows them to participate on an even playing field.

Quote:
Now, won't this drug be giving him an advantage over, say, someone like Mike in your scenario? You are only judging what's "fair" in the argument stating that intellect, the ability to comprehend etc, does not get boosted. Shouldn't the ability to focus be just one of the qualities among intellect, memory, etc in academic performance?
It doesn't give an advantage because anyone with true attention span issues can seek the same assistance, and healthy individuals don't suffer from any degree of attention deficit that would have a noticeable negative impact on their academic performance.

In the end the goal would be for everyone to be able to concentrate well enough that only their intellect differentiates them - I disagree with the statement that focus should be a factor in evaluating academic performance.
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Old 01-11-2009, 01:40 PM Ralph is offline  
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In the end the goal would be for everyone to be able to concentrate well enough that only their intellect differentiates them - I disagree with the statement that focus should be a factor in evaluating academic performance.

That's ridiculous. A lazy bum-fuck who is extremely intelligent pays his price for not doing well in school for being really lazy. If a theoretical drug came up and could make people less laz, would you say it merely puts people on a level playing field - that intellect should be the sole judge of academic performance and ultimately success?

Anything that makes people deal better with what they are BORN with is performance enchancing in my books.
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Old 01-11-2009, 04:17 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
#126  

Straw Man
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Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
I can go find a doctor who will prescribe oxycontin so I can get high off it, does that mean the intended purpose of oxycontin is to get high? No. Now apply that to your stupid fucking example about doctors illegally prescribing steroids to athletes and you'll realize you're still an idiot
I can go find a doctor why will prescribe adderall so I can fuck around with it, does that mean the intended purpose of adderall is to fuck with it? No. Now apply that to your stupid fucking example about doctors illegally prescribing steroids to athletes and you'll realize you're still an idiot
Quote:
I can't believe everything has to be broken down step by step for you to understand, you're literally fucking retarded aren't you? There's no reason you should ever post in the pit because you're not capable of contributing anything useful - you're just a troll.

Go eat some adderall, a pound of it
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Old 01-11-2009, 06:44 PM Straw Man is offline  
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9m9n9t
 
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That's ridiculous. A lazy bum-fuck who is extremely intelligent pays his price for not doing well in school for being really lazy. If a theoretical drug came up and could make people less laz, would you say it merely puts people on a level playing field - that intellect should be the sole judge of academic performance and ultimately success?

Anything that makes people deal better with what they are BORN with is performance enchancing in my books.

Adderall doesn't treat laziness, it allows you to focus on whatever you're doing whether it's playing video games or reading a book - you still need to be motivated to study.

I wouldn't call it performance enhancing because that puts it in a class of drugs that allow you to accomplish things above and beyond what a normal human being is capable of - adderall doesn't do that. If Straw Man up there eats that pound of it he'll still be a completely incompetent twat, albeit more focused on trolling.
Old 01-11-2009, 09:12 PM 9m9n9t is offline  
#128  

Straw Man
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Steroids, when abused, do require god honest work, just as much as usual. It doesn't really put you above and beyond what a normal human being is capable of either. I guess 9m9n9t would be pretty aware of this if the doctor had prescribed him 250mg's of Clue™ to go with that adderall.

I don't really care one bit if you two fucknuggets eat shit before tests, the least you could do is stop pretending you have any moral high ground though.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:03 AM Straw Man is offline  
#129  

9m9n9t
 
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It doesn't really put you above and beyond what a normal human being is capable of either. I guess 9m9n9t would be pretty aware of this if the doctor had prescribed him 250mg's of Clue™ to go with that adderall.

Wrong.

http://www.greggvalentino.net/

Quote:
By the time he was in his late teens he had already developed an outstanding physiqe at only 160lbs with 18 inch arms. After over 23 years of training naturally Gregg decided to experiment with steroids. During this time his arms grew from an impressive 100% natural 21" to an in-human 28"
Maybe you should go see a psychiatrist about your mental deficiencies, not to mention how fucking lazy you are since you'd know better if you put 30 seconds of research into this
Old 01-12-2009, 03:52 PM 9m9n9t is offline  
#130  

Phil Taylor
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Originally Posted by Impulse Rxn View Post
I'm not saying that studying, even on adderall, takes effort, but, if nothing else, it's synthetic attention.
of course studying takes effort. why did you ever doubt that?

i have to try really fucking hard to read a paragraph of something i don't give a shit about, let alone learn or remember it.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:55 PM Phil Taylor is offline  
#131  

DigitalChaos
 
It is not used as a substitue. It is used in addition to existing motivation or drive. As for the use of amphetamines for study, who cares? People can weigh the cost/benefit ratios and decide if it is OK. You either do or you don't decide that using amphetamines is an acceptable risk or not. Does it matter if someone chooses to use an amphetamine or not?
Old 01-12-2009, 05:05 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
#132  

sun_ofa_beach
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9m9n9t View Post
Wrong.

http://www.greggvalentino.net/



Maybe you should go see a psychiatrist about your mental deficiencies, not to mention how fucking lazy you are since you'd know better if you put 30 seconds of research into this

This is a very extreme example. For most steroid users, they are achieving levels that are not achievable naturally THEMSELVES, but quite possibly by other people. If steroids will always give you the ability to achieve "in-human" levels, Ben Johnson's record will never have been broken.

My point leads to my hypothesis that a person taking adderall will achieve levels of focus that is probably better than 60-80% of the population. You are saying that every "normal" person will have perfect concentration - in essence you are putting them in 2 categories, ones with concentration problems and ones that do not at all. What I'm saying is that the ability to concentrate falls along a distribution and taking this drug will put you above and beyoud the "mean" focusing ability of the entire population.
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:41 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
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DigitalChaos
 
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This is a very extreme example. For most steroid users, they are achieving levels that are not achievable naturally THEMSELVES, but quite possibly by other people. If steroids will always give you the ability to achieve "in-human" levels, Ben Johnson's record will never have been broken.

My point leads to my hypothesis that a person taking adderall will achieve levels of focus that is probably better than 60-80% of the population. You are saying that every "normal" person will have perfect concentration - in essence you are putting them in 2 categories, ones with concentration problems and ones that do not at all. What I'm saying is that the ability to concentrate falls along a distribution and taking this drug will put you above and beyoud the "mean" focusing ability of the entire population.

so what? so fucking what if people who take drugs can perform better than the majority of people that do not take drugs? Where is the problem?
Old 01-12-2009, 05:43 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
#134  

sun_ofa_beach
 
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so what? so fucking what if people who take drugs can perform better than the majority of people that do not take drugs? Where is the problem?

Calm down, never said there was a problem. There was a debate in the thread regarding calling adderall "performance enchancing" and whether it can be compared to steroids, and I'm just addressing that argument.
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:05 PM sun_ofa_beach is offline  
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