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dovvie
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I disagree; particularly because free clinics are pervasive already for these situations and knowledge of "healthy habits" are widespread.
People in the United States know that BigMacs are unhealthy. They know that smoking is unhealthy. They know that alcoholism is unhealthy. Otherwise you must be contending that the single parents working 3 jobs just to pay the rent and feed their children are stupid or otherwise unwilling to see the obvious. In which case nothing short of forcing them to get treatment will affect their "long term health"

If you're going to call me "beyond retarded" I think I'm entitled to some counter-examples and rationale as to how you think "free" health-care will keep people from living sedentary lives and result in more physical exercise.

I did counter most of your arguments(vaccine, ...) except for the physical exercise.
Ok, an example:
People will visit their doctor more often for 'simple' ills, he'll try to educate and motivate them to be more active, eat better, stop smoking, etc while treating them for their problem. He'll also tell them they ought to have a breast exam in a few months. He won't just treat their cough or neck pain but he'll check their blood pressure and maybe draw blood for their cholesterol/lipids.
Not everyone will heed the advise of their doctor, but by making them able to see their doctor frequently and without paying a lot, some will change the way they live and if not the doctor might intervene early thus avoiding an escalation of the problem (diabetes, high blood pressure).
Not every disease is the fault of the patient, this is some weird american idea, I guess. Most diseases are plain bad luck and affect everyone.
A lot of diseases can be cured cheaply and before they cause a lot of damage if a patient visits his doctor often and thus lowering the cost of healthcare.

However, good preventative care is a lot more than just lowering the cost of a consultation.
It entails media campaigns, educational campaigns, coordinated care, ...
There has been a lot of research in these things, but because there's not a lot of money in them for doctors or for the industry, they just don't get lobbied enough in the US.
But this is the pit, and I'll have wasted my time.
Old 12-15-2009, 07:45 AM dovvie is offline  
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:40 AM chuckybob is offline  
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#32  

trumpcard
 
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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
That's a reasonable idea but it's simply not valid in this case.
Americans' unhealthy lifestyle will not be changed with a simple piece of legislation.

Fat people don't get heart disease because they aren't told to lose weight.

Most people don't get cancer because they don't go to the doctor regularly. A conscientious man doesn't ignore colo-rectal exams because the doctor charges $100 for them.

People don't ignore vaccinations because they're too expensive.

I hate the cliche but you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink.
Maybe there are a few situations in which people really do avoid these things due to monetary issues but I do not believe that to be the prevailing reason.

Fat people don't get heart disease because they aren't told to lose weight, but people get fat because they don't have a doctor to feed them doom and gloom

There are more people than you could possibly imagine that ignore their $100 exams because they can't afford them

Same for vaccinations, either they can't afford them or they're afraid they can't afford them.

Medical care in this country isn't only expensive, it's intimidating and frightening.
Old 12-15-2009, 10:22 AM trumpcard is offline  
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#33  

SemperFly
 
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Originally Posted by trumpcard View Post
Fat people don't get heart disease because they aren't told to lose weight, but people get fat because they don't have a doctor to feed them doom and gloom

There are more people than you could possibly imagine that ignore their $100 exams because they can't afford them

Same for vaccinations, either they can't afford them or they're afraid they can't afford them.

Medical care in this country isn't only expensive, it's intimidating and frightening.

if fat people get fat because they're too stupid to know that being fat is dangerous, they deserve every heart attack they get

same for vaccinations. start thinning the goddamn herd.
Old 12-15-2009, 11:12 AM SemperFly is offline  
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#34  

Gibonius
 
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same for vaccinations. start thinning the goddamn herd.

Unfortunately if dumb people don't get vaccinations, we lose herd immunity and it starts affecting everyone. Vaccinations are a societal benefit, gotta keep those nasty diseases eliminated from this country.
Old 12-15-2009, 11:18 AM Gibonius is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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Unfortunately if dumb people don't get vaccinations, we lose herd immunity and it starts affecting everyone. Vaccinations are a societal benefit, gotta keep those nasty diseases eliminated from this country.

you're right


still, fat people should be allowed to just die off. and their fat children.
Old 12-15-2009, 11:21 AM SemperFly is offline  
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yes, people doing a bad job of electing their state legislatures are sure going to do a great job of electing their congressional senators!

and you grossly overestimate how popular that movement actually was. then again, it's not like we have any other form of directly elected representation in government that's inherently designed to represent the people by population

whew. crisis averted
State rights supporters are almost universally bizarre little fascists obsessed with preserving a system designed by aristocratic anti-populist slave holders and that you're actually sad the Senate, which even now is basically a reactionary oligarchy, isn't even more undemocratic is telling.
Old 12-15-2009, 02:27 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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#37  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I disagree; particularly because free clinics are pervasive already for these situations and knowledge of "healthy habits" are widespread.
People in the United States know that BigMacs are unhealthy. They know that smoking is unhealthy. They know that alcoholism is unhealthy. Otherwise you must be contending that the single parents working 3 jobs just to pay the rent and feed their children are stupid or otherwise unwilling to see the obvious. In which case nothing short of forcing them to get treatment will affect their "long term health"
Maybe instead of standing on top of a hill and pissing down on them like a bunch of self righteous faggots we should focus on understanding and fixing the problems?
Old 12-15-2009, 02:31 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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#38  

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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
State rights supporters are almost universally bizarre little fascists obsessed with preserving a system designed by aristocratic anti-populist slave holders and that you're actually sad the Senate, which even now is basically a reactionary oligarchy, isn't even more undemocratic is telling.

What's telling is just how little you understand of the government you criticize. Four errors in your post. Have fun living in your dream world.
Old 12-15-2009, 06:48 PM SemperFly is offline  
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#39  

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having everyone fit and able to work would be a good thing to this economy.. read WORK

if you dont work LEGALLY your sol i say
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Old 12-15-2009, 07:54 PM IMFlacid is offline  
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#40  

Trachei
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dovvie View Post
I did counter most of your arguments(vaccine, ...) except for the physical exercise.
Ok, an example:
People will visit their doctor more often for 'simple' ills, he'll try to educate and motivate them to be more active, eat better, stop smoking, etc while treating them for their problem. He'll also tell them they ought to have a breast exam in a few months. He won't just treat their cough or neck pain but he'll check their blood pressure and maybe draw blood for their cholesterol/lipids.
Not everyone will heed the advise of their doctor, but by making them able to see their doctor frequently and without paying a lot, some will change the way they live and if not the doctor might intervene early thus avoiding an escalation of the problem (diabetes, high blood pressure).
Not every disease is the fault of the patient, this is some weird american idea, I guess. Most diseases are plain bad luck and affect everyone.
A lot of diseases can be cured cheaply and before they cause a lot of damage if a patient visits his doctor often and thus lowering the cost of healthcare.

However, good preventative care is a lot more than just lowering the cost of a consultation.
It entails media campaigns, educational campaigns, coordinated care, ...
There has been a lot of research in these things, but because there's not a lot of money in them for doctors or for the industry, they just don't get lobbied enough in the US.
But this is the pit, and I'll have wasted my time.

This was all disproved as NOT cost effective btw.
Old 12-15-2009, 10:59 PM Trachei is offline  
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#41  

SemperFly
 
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Originally Posted by marter View Post
having everyone fit and able to work would be a good thing to this economy.. read WORK

if you dont work LEGALLY your sol i say

absolutely

now anyone here delusional enough to think that any significant portion of people aren't working because they don't have free health care is retarded

not that it's an argument against it or anything, but I'm sorry, your post doesn't really fly as an argument for it
Old 12-17-2009, 12:04 AM SemperFly is offline  
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#42  

SmoothFlowing
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I disagree; particularly because free clinics are pervasive already for these situations and knowledge of "healthy habits" are widespread.
People in the United States know that BigMacs are unhealthy. They know that smoking is unhealthy. They know that alcoholism is unhealthy. Otherwise you must be contending that the single parents working 3 jobs just to pay the rent and feed their children are stupid or otherwise unwilling to see the obvious. In which case nothing short of forcing them to get treatment will affect their "long term health"

If you're going to call me "beyond retarded" I think I'm entitled to some counter-examples and rationale as to how you think "free" health-care will keep people from living sedentary lives and result in more physical exercise.

Somehow your fascist Conservative Republican mumbo jumbo makes sense however...
It only makes sense due to your countries inherently flawed "laizzes fair" system of governing business and industry. Where else in the world can you find a nation so blatantly obvious in its attempts to cover up its economic shortcomings by waging wars in other countries? Tell me was the over 9 years and billions and billions of dollars spent on "preventing terrorism" better invested more fruitful then passing a bill on universal health care?
In Canada we have one of the highest levels of taxation of any of the developed countries in the world. Yet somehow we manage to not only survive but prosper and not suffer through a "recession" as heavily as our American counterparts.(granted there are some exceptions such as the Canadian auto industry which ironically is reliant on America.) In fact i believe our dollar is sitting near parity at the moment again!.
It is not your place or right to criticize whether or not your government passes a bill on health care.
The American people have the right to live with the same standard of health as Canada. You are not placed on this earth to judge peoples eating habits or lifestyles whether or not they are healthy. Self determination is the right to every free individual and it is the nations responsibility to look after its peoples whether or not they choose to use that self determination wisely.
There's no reason to maintain the war in Afghanistan, the People don't want American Help they certainly dont need it. Time, money and more importantly lives are being wasted there.(Atleast Iraq had oil right?) How many vietnams does The US need in one century before it gets the picture.

Leave Afghanistan end the war and the money you save due to the lowered defense budget will more then cover anything you spend on health care.

But what do i know i'm just a liberal Canadian with Free health care*
(not everything is free but most of it)
Old 12-17-2009, 02:09 AM SmoothFlowing is offline  
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#43  

Bukkakeboy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothFlowing View Post
There's no reason to maintain the war in Afghanistan, the People don't want American Help they certainly dont need it. Time, money and more importantly lives are being wasted there.(Atleast Iraq had oil right?) How many vietnams does The US need in one century before it gets the picture.

Leave Afghanistan end the war and the money you save due to the lowered defense budget will more then cover anything you spend on health care.

What do you know about this?

Looking over your "arguments", nothing.

That the afghani people neither want nor need american/international support is not only retarded but also demonstrably false.
There is also another reason for us being there (self preservation), which is that leaving a taliban run afghanistan would increase the risk of acts of terrorism outside its borders. Not mentioning the human rights violations and systematic abuse of women such a rule brings with it.

As such we have a moral and humanitarian imperative, as well as self interest as reasons for ousting the taliban.
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:04 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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#44  

Gibonius
 
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It is not your place or right to criticize whether or not your government passes a bill on health care.
Yeah, this is just wrong. It is very much his place to criticize, and his responsibility to be involved even. The American system of government was founded around the idea of citizen participation. The country would be better off if MORE people got actively involved and learned the issues, including complaining when they disagree.
Old 12-17-2009, 11:01 AM Gibonius is offline  
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