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Vote McCain!
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Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
we have a gif for that now


i think you meant this

Old 12-21-2009, 07:30 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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chuckybob
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Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
i think you meant this


i like that one, but its more of a "oh my god this thread is so shit looking at it for one more second is not worth living" type of deal there
Old 12-21-2009, 07:31 PM chuckybob is offline  
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the state is the people

aaaand their whole argument falls on its ass when you point that out.

well, that plus "who'll fix levees and highways".
Old 12-22-2009, 12:06 AM Xayd is offline  
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TheMorlock
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aaaand their whole argument falls on its ass when you point that out.

well, that plus "who'll fix levees and highways".

Well you dun caught us out flatfooted with that city slicker argament!!!!
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:29 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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States rights doesn't empower individuals. It empowers State governments.

And somehow more power in the federal government empowers people?

In the real world it draws even more power away from people. It's easier to get local and state laws changed than federal ones.
Old 12-22-2009, 07:51 AM SemperFly is offline  
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schweig
 
Back in line citizens! Your lack of compliance has been reported to the Bureau that Handles this kind of shit...
Old 12-22-2009, 07:55 AM schweig is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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the state is the people

That's a nice theory but in reality the state is mostly controlled only by certain groups of people.
Old 12-22-2009, 11:06 AM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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And somehow more power in the federal government empowers people?
Not necessarily but it can be a better alternative than leaving States to their own devices depending upon circumstances (i.e. is the federal government more progressive than the states in question?)

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Originally Posted by SemperFly View Post
In the real world it draws even more power away from people. It's easier to get local and state laws changed than federal ones.
State governments tend to be even more oligarchic and corrupt than the federal government, nor are they necessarily anymore representative as the history of the South shows.
Old 12-22-2009, 11:09 AM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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Not necessarily but it can be a better alternative than leaving States to their own devices depending upon circumstances (i.e. is the federal government more progressive than the states in question?)
It can be depending upon circumstances. Which means it might also be worse.

Holy fucking shit.
Quote:
State governments tend to be even more oligarchic and corrupt than the federal government, nor are they necessarily anymore representative as the history of the South shows.
No, they don't.

Ah yes, because examples from over a hundred years ago mean the states will reinstate slavery again. Brilliant deduction. Perhaps you should also consider the history of the north around the same time. Or maybe it's not as fun to pretend that the great northerners actually gave a shit about abolishing slavery and the evil southerners all owned a pair themselves, barring the possibility of abolitionists taking hold.
Old 12-22-2009, 11:30 AM SemperFly is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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That's a nice theory but in reality the state is mostly controlled only by certain groups of people.

In reality the federal government is mostly controlled only by certain groups of people. But then you have smaller groups of people controlling even larger groups of people. Where nothing can posse-bli go wrong.
Old 12-22-2009, 11:31 AM SemperFly is offline  
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chuckybob
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Quote:
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That's a nice theory but in reality the state is mostly controlled only by certain groups of people.

who are elected by, for, and from the people. the masses hold all the power, its just that they only get to use it once every two years.

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Originally Posted by SemperFly View Post
And somehow more power in the federal government empowers people?

In the real world it draws even more power away from people. It's easier to get local and state laws changed than federal ones.

totally true, however state laws generally become federal laws anyway. the only real difference in bureaucratic power between local and federal governments is the time frame with which laws are passed and the amount of asshattery that goes on in the chambers.
Old 12-22-2009, 03:19 PM chuckybob is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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It can be depending upon circumstances. Which means it might also be worse.

Holy fucking shit.
In the case of the federal government holding back progressive states, yes that would be worse. The flaw in states rights is that it argues for absolutes. I have no interest in states rights if it means allowing regressive political and economic policies to remain or be enacted, which is almost always the case when someone presents themselves as champions of "states rights". If the state is enacting a progressive policy then I support them.

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Originally Posted by SemperFly View Post
No, they don't.

Ah yes, because examples from over a hundred years ago mean the states will reinstate slavery again. Brilliant deduction.
The entire history of the South has been about one group dominating another and their attempts to keep them disenfranchised whether that be politically or economically. They were largely successful, it's still going on today and there's certainly no need to go back to slavery to find examples of such.

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Originally Posted by SemperFly View Post
Perhaps you should also consider the history of the north around the same time. Or maybe it's not as fun to pretend that the great northerners actually gave a shit about abolishing slavery and the evil southerners all owned a pair themselves, barring the possibility of abolitionists taking hold.
I never said anything about the North. I used the South as an example because it's the most egregious example. It's cute that you get so worked up over it though.
Old 12-22-2009, 03:58 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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who are elected by, for, and from the people. the masses hold all the power, its just that they only get to use it once every two years.
The only "power" the masses have is to choose from candidates that are selected for them primarily based on their wealth and political connections.
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Old 12-22-2009, 04:09 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Vote McCain!
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States rights doesn't empower individuals. It empowers State governments.

Excuse me, but what the fuck?

The entire fucking reason i live where i live is because my state has made their own decision on gun and drug rights that makes sense to ME. Fuck what you assholes in massachusetts think, this is Oregon, and we have the right to do things the way WE want, fuck what people in Washington or Idaho or whatever think. See how that fucking works?

For example, if i dont like the gun laws here in my state of Oregon, then i can just move the fuck out and go to Washington where i like the gun laws. Or i can lobby my local government to change my state's laws on a particular issue.
Old 12-22-2009, 04:10 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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Polyhedric Mu
 
Quote:
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In the case of the federal government holding back progressive states, yes that would be worse. The flaw in states rights is that it argues for absolutes. I have no interest in states rights if it means allowing regressive political and economic policies to remain or be enacted, which is almost always the case when someone presents themselves as champions of "states rights". If the state is enacting a progressive policy then I support them.

nice double standard there
Old 12-22-2009, 04:11 PM Polyhedric Mu is offline  
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