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tegandje
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I don't see why we are even discussing this. The top 5% pay more than half the taxes so they lobby and get shit done. Bottom 50% pay like 10% of the taxes. Obviously, the rich have no problem with this, or lobbyist groups would have been slapping assholes for a while now.

People that get government handouts can be excluded from jobs and it's not like they are always the most eligible job candidates to begin with. Sure there are some smart successful people that get on welfare, but the rest? Not so much.

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Old 02-16-2010, 07:03 PM tegandje is offline  
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CommiePunk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckybob View Post
fair enough, however imprisonment is supposed to be their punishment and payment for their crimes. especially once their debt is payed, they should be allowed to resume voting, something ex-felons cant do at all in fifteen states, as of 2001.



better answer: change felony punishment to fit the severity of the felony.

this guy was driving home from the shooting range with a handgun registered to him in his car. since it wasnt in the trunk, he was convicted of a felony. he didnt hurt or endanger a soul, or cause one iota of property damage.

http://reentry.mplp.org/reentry/inde...Life_Sentences

you're picking some really far-fetched cases. almost all people who are convicted felons don't belong to one of your "special cases".
Old 02-16-2010, 07:06 PM CommiePunk is offline  
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chuckybob
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you're picking some really far-fetched cases. almost all people who are convicted felons don't belong to one of your "special cases".

yet some convicted felons have done little wrong and are being punished too severely for it.

even ex-murderers deserve the right to vote after they have paid there debt to society and become citizens again. there is no risk in allowing convicted felons to vote.
Old 02-16-2010, 07:29 PM chuckybob is offline  
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CommiePunk
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yet some convicted felons have done little wrong and are being punished too severely for it.

even ex-murderers deserve the right to vote after they have paid there debt to society and become citizens again. there is no risk in allowing convicted felons to vote.

ex-murderers have paid their debt when they get the same fate as their victims. there is no such thing as someone who commits 1st degree murder and "does their time".
Old 02-16-2010, 07:32 PM CommiePunk is offline  
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chuckybob
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ex-murderers have paid their debt when they get the same fate as their victims. there is no such thing as someone who commits 1st degree murder and "does their time".

so you believe in an eye for an eye?
Old 02-16-2010, 08:03 PM chuckybob is offline  
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fair enough, however imprisonment is supposed to be their punishment and payment for their crimes.
Says who?
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especially once their debt is payed, they should be allowed to resume voting, something ex-felons cant do at all in fifteen states, as of 2001.
That doesn't seem accurate. According to FelonVoting.org, no state has blanket permanent disenfranchisement for all felons. Several restriction specific felonies from ever getting their vote back, but I can't see any real objections to the particulars (violent crimes, usually).

My uncle lost his vote after waving a water pistol out of the window of a car (while drunk) and ended up with a felony. This happened in VA. He never bothered to petition to get his vote back. His choice, really.
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better answer: change felony punishment to fit the severity of the felony.
Most states already have.

The rules could use a little refinement, but I don't see that the system as a whole is broken.
Old 02-16-2010, 08:16 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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neither is any other cross section of the population in that case. i find your argument flimsy and wet like a cardboard home.

The difference is a felon has interests that can negatively affect civil society. Lets say you have a serial rapist at the ballot box. Do you think he's going to vote in the candidate that will increase his prison terms? Probably not, but it's in the general social interest. There are consequences that come with anyone's actions, and I don't want felons voting when the public safety may be affected.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:47 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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We could give heroin to prisoners!

Obviously!
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:48 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
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the punishment doesnt always fit the crime. sometimes felony laws are un-needed or mis-applied, to the detriment of society.

for example, in flordia, its a third degree felony to show your friend a porno and then let them borrow it.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...20011#0847.011


this kid was charged with 3 felonies after he accidentally found a school district database and responsibly alerted his principal to the vulnerability
http://www.thetechherald.com/article...urity-policies

I've never heard of anyone losing their right to vote in the United States for that kind of law. IIRC, that's applied to prisoners, not kids who show their friends a dirty movie.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:52 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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chuckybob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Says who?

Jeremy Bentham

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
That doesn't seem accurate. According to FelonVoting.org, no state has blanket permanent disenfranchisement for all felons. Several restriction specific felonies from ever getting their vote back, but I can't see any real objections to the particulars (violent crimes, usually).

My uncle lost his vote after waving a water pistol out of the window of a car (while drunk) and ended up with a felony. This happened in VA. He never bothered to petition to get his vote back. His choice, really.

Most states already have.

The rules could use a little refinement, but I don't see that the system as a whole is broken.

oh, cool
Old 02-16-2010, 08:53 PM chuckybob is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
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better answer: change felony punishment to fit the severity of the felony.

this guy was driving home from the shooting range with a handgun registered to him in his car. since it wasnt in the trunk, he was convicted of a felony. he didnt hurt or endanger a soul, or cause one iota of property damage.

http://reentry.mplp.org/reentry/inde...Life_Sentences

So? That law is there for a very good reason, and a responsible gun owner should know the laws of their state better. In Canada, you can't transport a weapon like that even if you have a license for it unless it's locked and out of your reach. There's a reason they do things like that.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:54 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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chuckybob
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The difference is a felon has interests that can negatively affect civil society. Lets say you have a serial rapist at the ballot box. Do you think he's going to vote in the candidate that will increase his prison terms? Probably not, but it's in the general social interest. There are consequences that come with anyone's actions, and I don't want felons voting when the public safety may be affected.

youre severely discounting the influence of the votes of the entire rest of society.
Old 02-16-2010, 08:55 PM chuckybob is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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oh, cool

Woah, a Pit argument that ends with some kind of consensus?


Weird.
Old 02-16-2010, 10:20 PM Gibonius is offline  
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tegandje
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We're not trolling ( for the most part - i tried earlier )
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:52 PM tegandje is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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youre severely discounting the influence of the votes of the entire rest of society.

You mean the entire rest of society that doesn't bother showing up to vote anyway?
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Last edited by Tom Kazansky; 02-16-2010 at 11:46 PM..
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