General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
:ninja:
My cooter sweats, and reeks like rotting sea vermon.
 
:ninja:'s Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Because spending for national defense is a constitutional imperative for the federal government. Has been since the beginning. Spending on health care for everyone would be a whole new thing. Health care has generally been considered more of a personal responsibility than something the government should be doing... at least up until Medicare in 1965.

For a small, vulnerable country founded by revolution that is completely logical. However, circumstances change.
__________________
Use Linux and BSD
Old 02-26-2010, 06:32 PM :ninja: is offline  
Reply With Quote
#31  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

Jason
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
For a small, vulnerable country founded by revolution that is completely logical. However, circumstances change.

I know. Back then we didn't have 12.4 trillion dollars of debt and a 1.4 trillion dollar federal deficit and could spend a little extra money on things we wanted instead of just things we needed. Circumstances change.
Old 02-26-2010, 06:38 PM Jason is offline  
Reply With Quote
#32  

Electrikfuzz050
 
Electrikfuzz050's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
For a small, vulnerable country founded by revolution that is completely logical. However, circumstances change.

Yes, since we're a big country that just means people will stop wanting to harm us.
Old 02-26-2010, 08:19 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
Reply With Quote
#33  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnasSplenium View Post
I think you are greatly mislead and there are a lot more people than you think. I certainly don't care. Everyone with any kind of respectable job already has satisfactory coverage, and they do not want expensive change.

I'm already paying into systems that will give me nothing back like social security. How bout one more? SOUNDS GREAT.

You might want to actually, you know, read the OP. This bill is designed to DECREASE spending on health care, both by the government and in general.


Other than that, the current economic climate points out the biggest flaw in your argument: you're only safe until you lose your job. Being unemployed sucks in general, but losing your health insurance along with it turns a bad situation into a disaster.
Old 02-26-2010, 10:36 PM Gibonius is offline  
Reply With Quote
#34  

Jason
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You might want to actually, you know, read the OP. This bill is designed to DECREASE spending on health care, both by the government and in general.


Other than that, the current economic climate points out the biggest flaw in your argument: you're only safe until you lose your job. Being unemployed sucks in general, but losing your health insurance along with it turns a bad situation into a disaster.

You don't actually lose your health insurance, you just lose your ability to bargain as a collective with your company. Even if your company "pays" for your health insurance, or even part of it, it all comes out of your paycheck in the end, whether on your piece of paper or not. The only advantage to getting health insurance through work rather than by yourself is the power of numbers. I have had just as much health insurance employed as I have unemployed.
Old 02-26-2010, 11:22 PM Jason is offline  
Reply With Quote
#35  

astriy
 
astriy's Avatar
 
If you can't get beyond the fact that healthcare cannot be treated as any elastic commodity and see the bigger picture of how the well-being of the workforce and community affects everyone, then there's no reasoning with you.
Old 02-27-2010, 06:59 AM astriy is offline  
Reply With Quote
#36  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
You don't actually lose your health insurance, you just lose your ability to bargain as a collective with your company. Even if your company "pays" for your health insurance, or even part of it, it all comes out of your paycheck in the end, whether on your piece of paper or not. The only advantage to getting health insurance through work rather than by yourself is the power of numbers. I have had just as much health insurance employed as I have unemployed.

It is certainly true that your health care ends up coming out of your paycheck regardless. However, your protections as an individual are much lower. If you have a pre-existing condition, you may not be able to buy insurance at all as an individual. If you're healthy and buy insurance, it is much easier for your insurance company to drop you if you happen to become sick.

And of course there's the cost factor, you'll end up paying a significant multiple of a group rate, at a time when you can least afford it.

All of this really argues against the employer based system. People are "happy" with their employer based health care because they don't really know the cost, or the cost of the alternatives. It would be better for consumers to be able to pick their own plans, but people are lazy and stupid apparently and would rather their companies deal with it for them.
Old 02-27-2010, 08:57 AM Gibonius is offline  
Reply With Quote
#37  

AnasSplenium
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
You might want to actually, you know, read the OP. This bill is designed to DECREASE spending on health care, both by the government and in general.


Other than that, the current economic climate points out the biggest flaw in your argument: you're only safe until you lose your job. Being unemployed sucks in general, but losing your health insurance along with it turns a bad situation into a disaster.

How silly of me. There's certainly no chance it might not do what its designed to do. This is a nice thought, but we should start smaller.
__________________
Omaha [M] Club
Old 02-27-2010, 01:31 PM AnasSplenium is offline  
Reply With Quote
#38  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by astriy View Post
If you can't get beyond the fact that healthcare cannot be treated as any elastic commodity and see the bigger picture of how the well-being of the workforce and community affects everyone, then there's no reasoning with you.

There is no increase in ROI if you tax the productive to the breaking point to give the same level of healthcare that those productive people enjoy to welfare rats and illegals

The picture has a bit more depth and complexity than your nearsightedness can grasp it seems. The rose colored glasses dont help. So until you take them off and open your eyes a bit more there is no reasoning with you.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 02-27-2010, 01:54 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#39  

astriy
 
astriy's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
There is no increase in ROI if you tax the productive to the breaking point to give the same level of healthcare that those productive people enjoy to welfare rats and illegals

The picture has a bit more depth and complexity than your nearsightedness can grasp it seems. The rose colored glasses dont help. So until you take them off and open your eyes a bit more there is no reasoning with you.

what do illegals and people on welfare (that get gov't healthcare already) have to do with this? Please enlighten us on how your favorite scapegoats have anything to do with this healthcare debate?

As for taxing the productive, how about the fact that as a small business owner I cannot afford to offer insurance to my 4 employees? All of them are hardworking american citizens. 3 of them don't have health insurance, the 1 that does only has it because their spouse works for a big company that offers it. In order to provide them with health insurance, I would have to cut their pay by over 20%. How's that for ROI?

Last edited by astriy; 02-28-2010 at 12:00 PM..
Old 02-28-2010, 11:44 AM astriy is offline  
Reply With Quote
#40  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnasSplenium View Post
How silly of me. There's certainly no chance it might not do what its designed to do. This is a nice thought, but we should start smaller.

Where exactly could this bill end up costing a lot of money?


"Starting smaller" is what has led to the current mess. No one in Washington has the balls to actually address the real issues in health care. This bill is reasonably comprehensive and covers a lot of the major bases. It has basically no chance of ever reaching the floor (unfortunately) because of stupid politics from both sides of the aisle but it's worth talking about.
Old 02-28-2010, 12:48 PM Gibonius is offline  
Reply With Quote
#41  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by astriy View Post
what do illegals and people on welfare (that get gov't healthcare already) have to do with this? Please enlighten us on how your favorite scapegoats have anything to do with this healthcare debate?

As for taxing the productive, how about the fact that as a small business owner I cannot afford to offer insurance to my 4 employees? All of them are hardworking american citizens. 3 of them don't have health insurance, the 1 that does only has it because their spouse works for a big company that offers it. In order to provide them with health insurance, I would have to cut their pay by over 20%. How's that for ROI?

You really need to pay attention. Government and Unions have driven down compensation. So the companies have to make up the profits they want by charging everyone without a sweet deal out the ass. You have heard of medicare right?

So if this gets expanded then there are only two ways for it to go. Government taxes the shit out of people to pay for the non productive.

How does illegals figure in? There are over 10 million illegals just from mexico. All get emergency treatment if they go to a hospital. Causing the hospitals to have to make up the loss by increasing prices. Now figure in the previous millions that have been granted legal status for no reason besides politicians wanting their vote.

Laws need to be changed to cut costs, not more free stuff handed out to wastes of space.

Penalize frivolous suits. But at the same time yank doctors license irrevocably US wide for gross malpractice.

Stop taxing everyone to the breaking point to fund another unworkable social project.

Make tiered plans. If you are a min wage worker that spends his money on booze instead of education to get a better job, when your liver fails the rest of the people should not be footing the bill for a transplant and the anti rejection meds.
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 02-28-2010, 03:27 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#42  

Gibonius
 
You should read and comment on the bill in the OP Morlock
Old 02-28-2010, 04:11 PM Gibonius is offline  
Reply With Quote
#43  

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Recently been reading this bill and I'm somewhat impressed and wanted to get some discussion going. Links can be found here to a summary and the full bill.

Bullet points, as I understand them:
  • Provide science based incentives to reduce negative behaviors. Medicare premiums will be lowered for seniors who engage in healthy behaviors. Education would be provided for everyone.

    Fuck social engineering
  • Vaccines will receive more federal funding.

    we already do more infant/toddler vaccines than other nation IIRC and their is a question about increase in such things like autism.
  • Federal health care spending will be evaluated under scientific metrics and only effective treatments will be paid for. Food stamps cannot be applied to junk food.


  • All Americans will buy allowed to be private insurance from a government related Health Exchange (at the state level), and all plans must meet a minimum standard. All patients would have access, including those with pre-existing conditions. Companies that charge exorbitant rates to those with PECs will be penalized by an independent board.

    Why penalize a company for not going broke? If other companies can survive while providing PEC coverage WITHOUT a subsidy then good for them.
  • Individuals will be taxed for their health insurance benefits from work. However, they will receive a tax credit for health care.

    Why complicate things? This only adds two more layers of red tape and exemptions etc etc costing more in the long run

    (I like this because it will help kill the employer based health care system when combined with the exchange)
  • Expand Health Savings Accounts.
  • Provide federal money to low income families to buy private plans, instead of providing Medicaid. Note: federal money, which alleviates the unfunded mandate on the states.

    More taxes on those who work to succeed at life.
  • Give doctors incentives for actually curing diseases, instead of a strict per procedure payment.
  • Wealthier retirees will pay more in taxes for their Medicare. Some means test would be good. But there should be a limit. They have paid into the system so if something catastrophic happens they should be able to benefit.
  • Add various consumer protections so insurance companies cannot arbitrarily drop sick/injured customers.


    Good one
  • Spend money to improve record keeping.



Honestly, this looks like a really good bill. It doesn't have a lot of Republican support though (omg tax increases), but it really looks like something that would help. No snipe chasing with tort reform, no nonsense about competition across state lines without increased regulation. It's a well thought out piece of legislation from what I see so far.


Thoughts?


...
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 02-28-2010, 05:30 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#44  

Gibonius
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMorlock View Post
we already do more infant/toddler vaccines than other nation IIRC and their is a question about increase in such things like autism.
Vaccines have one of the best returns on investment of any medical treatment, and the autism link is 100% pure bullshit with no evidence.
Quote:
Why penalize a company for not going broke? If other companies can survive while providing PEC coverage WITHOUT a subsidy then good for them.
How does anyone with a pre-existing condition get affordable coverage unless insurers are forced to provided covered (or the government offers it)?
Quote:
Why complicate things? This only adds two more layers of red tape and exemptions etc etc costing more in the long run
The point is to kill off the employer based system while not penalizing consumers too badly. The employer based system has proven to be hideously inefficient, throwing it back to the market should more than make up for any losses to government inefficiency.
Quote:
More taxes on those who work to succeed at life.
Not really, it's just reshuffling tax money. Instead of Medicaid paying out directly to doctors, we'll just buy private insurance for people. It gives poor people an incentive to find reasonably priced health insurance and let providers compete to offer services, instead of just relying on Uncle Sam as we do now.
Old 03-01-2010, 06:34 AM Gibonius is offline  
Reply With Quote
#45  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:17 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.