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AnasSplenium
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
why should the minorities get any compensation just cause they are a minority?
One person's vote is worth just as much as any other person's. Same goes with each persons $1 put into the tax bin.

The only issues I could see here are due to the Federal level handling stuff that should be done at the state level (which we have lots of unfortunately). If you mean county level then.. that is up to the state but a similar model would certainly work.

You don't see absolute majority control as a problem? Our system of government is very carefully structured to avoid exactly that. Its not that the framers of the constitution didn't have the technology, they took many, many steps to avoid complete democracy. It is written in the constitution that the states HAVE to have representative government. complete democracy is unconstitutional.

And to put this a simpler way: Are most people retarded? Yes. Measures are needed to control them.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:46 PM AnasSplenium is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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I really doubt most people here are really as educated as they think they are, or that most people are as stupid as they think.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:17 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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DigitalChaos
 
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I really doubt most people here are really as educated as they think they are, or that most people are as stupid as they think.

Of course. I think all that is being suggested is that we filter out people who are simply completely uninformed or more likely... the wrongly informed. False information is even more dangerous than no information. Requesting a very basic understanding of the issue isn't a bad thing.

Now, if you want expert level intelligence on a topic to vote then you go back to a full on Meritocracy. The only problem is that you can't ensure that the experts doing the voting are keeping the best interests of others in mind.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:33 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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Jason
 
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Of course. I think all that is being suggested is that we filter out people who are simply completely uninformed or more likely... the wrongly informed. False information is even more dangerous than no information. Requesting a very basic understanding of the issue isn't a bad thing.

Now, if you want expert level intelligence on a topic to vote then you go back to a full on Meritocracy. The only problem is that you can't ensure that the experts doing the voting are keeping the best interests of others in mind.

There could always be a system where the actual issue was hidden on the ballot in a way that they would have to read it ahead of time to know which way to vote.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:36 PM Jason is offline  
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DigitalChaos
 
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I would see people really contesting those 5 basic questions. It could be seen as the literacy tests election sites would have to keep minorities from voting so many years ago. I'm not saying the 5 questions would be racist, but people could claim they are trying to keep "the right people" voting. This is all hypothetical since I don't even know what the questions would be, but this happens a lot with school testing as well. Even illiterates would protest their rights were being trampled.

And on direct democracy, sure I guess everyone could vote on their twitter feeds or whatever, but I can't see that functioning very well. The people themselves don't vote on most laws passed because they don't understand the wording and implications of most bills. They could vote on lower taxes, but then be surprised when civil services get cut back. And how would the people make revisions to bills, or are there still representatives that make these bills, but they themselves don't vote on them anymore? What would it take for a bill to pass in direct democracy? If all you need is a majority vote, then the states and cultures with the largest populations would rape the minority interests every time. It's why the senate was created in the first place. I'd see direct democracy, especially on a federal level, as a clusterfuck of people just reading the executive summaries of bills, and then voting on whatever keyword hits their buttons.

Call it 6 questions. 3 questions crafted by the "for" side and 3 by the "against" side. All questions have to be vetted as having relevant and factual answers.
Climate legislation:
Is CO2 emitted via consumption of fossil fuels?
What is the current ppmv level of CO2?
Select which of the follow 5 gases are classified as greenhouse gases:
-CO2
-Methane
-O2
-H2O
.... etc

etc. real basic shit that demonstrates the knowledge of what climate change actually is.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:43 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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tegandje
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
I really doubt most people here are really as educated as they think they are, or that most people are as stupid as they think.

I think most genmayers are actually smarter than the avg american
probably a higher % of genmayers have college degrees than if you just took a sample of avg americans - usually people that graduated from their little school with a retarded piece of paper learned something but them governnments

why should the uneducated have a say? they are probably making the wrong decision anyway
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:44 PM tegandje is offline  
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tegandje
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
Call it 6 questions. 3 questions crafted by the "for" side and 3 by the "against" side. All questions have to be vetted as having relevant and factual answers.
Climate legislation:
Is CO2 emitted via consumption of fossil fuels?
What is the current ppmv level of CO2?
Select which of the follow 5 gases are classified as greenhouse gases:
-CO2
-Methane
-O2
-H2O
.... etc

etc. real basic shit that demonstrates the knowledge of what climate change actually is.

i eated some cesium and shaved with arsenic
am i doing it wrong?


I would love it if they made it so your SAT/ACT score was the determining factor if you got a vote or not. If you are some retard that isn't in the top 25%, your vote should count as like 3/5 and if you are in the top 5% your vote should be like 2x the normal voting power
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:46 PM tegandje is offline  
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#22  

DigitalChaos
 
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Originally Posted by AnasSplenium View Post
You don't see absolute majority control as a problem? Our system of government is very carefully structured to avoid exactly that. Its not that the framers of the constitution didn't have the technology, they took many, many steps to avoid complete democracy. It is written in the constitution that the states HAVE to have representative government. complete democracy is unconstitutional.

And to put this a simpler way: Are most people retarded? Yes. Measures are needed to control them.

Let me rephrase and say that we can implement a more fluid/dynamic version of our government. Individuals could have more control and faster control over their reps. No more getting voted in and then having free reign until next elections. Our government needs a faster and more powerful feedback mechanism.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:47 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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topcat989
 
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"Should people be allowed to vote on something they don't comprehend?"

I think only those who have successfully completed a term in the federation service should be allowed to vote.....or hold political office.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:49 PM topcat989 is offline  
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#24  

DigitalChaos
 
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why should the uneducated have a say? they are probably making the wrong decision anyway

What happens when the educated vote in a way that would produce unfavorable results for the uneducated? It increases the gap between the two groups and only increases the legitimate grievances of the uneducated. That shit builds up over time and gets released in... bad ways.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:50 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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tegandje
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
What happens when the educated vote in a way that would produce unfavorable results for the uneducated? It increases the gap between the two groups and only increases the legitimate grievances of the uneducated. That shit builds up over time and gets released in... bad ways.

Pretty much happens in private industry. Revolutions are pretty cool - you get a public gathering and people get their heads chopped off

The most intelligent should be making decisions. The most intelligent aren't always the most ethical though, but they usually know what will happen if they make a boo-boo


Most things can and are solved with money - voting doesn't really count for much when the two choices are very similar if not identical
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Old 02-24-2010, 03:52 PM tegandje is offline  
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DigitalChaos
 
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Pretty much happens in private industry. Revolutions are pretty cool - you get a public gathering and people get their heads chopped off

The most intelligent should be making decisions. The most intelligent aren't always the most ethical though, but they usually know what will happen if they make a boo-boo


Most things can and are solved with money - voting doesn't really count for much when the two choices are very similar if not identical

Have the best of both your worlds. Be the majority that dictates benefits for the majority while fucking the minority... AND convince the uneducated to join your cause. Join the GOP! You would have an unstoppable pyramid scam as long as nobody cared about the ethics and the uneducated continued to be unaware.
Old 02-24-2010, 03:59 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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#27  

tegandje
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Sounds good to me.
I'm liberally conservative.

DC, you're a smart guy. Would you really want Bubba and his cousin for a wife having the same voting privileges as yourself?
Fair is fair as long as it matches the new rules, no?
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Old 02-24-2010, 04:11 PM tegandje is offline  
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DigitalChaos
 
If bubba can demonstrate that he even knows WHAT he is voting on as opposed to blindly voting out of some TV scare campaign... then sure. He can have just as much of a vote.

liberal conservative... I am kinda there but the more I see people align themselves in what they cal "conservatism" the more I want out!

I must say that Libertarian Socialism is starting to sound more and more like the right way. I really do think that this seems to be the direction of the US if we try and satisfy all the outspoken sides while maintaining the roots of the US. That is for another thread though...
Old 02-24-2010, 04:22 PM DigitalChaos is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
Of course. I think all that is being suggested is that we filter out people who are simply completely uninformed or more likely... the wrongly informed. False information is even more dangerous than no information. Requesting a very basic understanding of the issue isn't a bad thing.
Many educated people are as easily swayed by propaganda as the poorly educated and I'm not really sure what standard determining who is "wrongly" informed would be based on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalChaos View Post
Now, if you want expert level intelligence on a topic to vote then you go back to a full on Meritocracy. The only problem is that you can't ensure that the experts doing the voting are keeping the best interests of others in mind.
On some issues this would be fine, mostly the narrow areas where hard science should determine policy, but on others "expert level intelligence" may not be desirable at all for someone like me. A Chicago economist might be considered an "expert" but I would likely have fundamental differences of opinion with him on economics with no recourse. Likewise many foreign policy think tanks are full of absolutely despicable human beings but they are considered "experts" by much of society.
Old 02-24-2010, 04:47 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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