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Ralph
 
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Originally Posted by Frenetic View Post
Also Ralph your views on criminal laws seem inaccurate to me. Laws aren't made with the assumption that people are too stupid to figure out right from wrong. They are made with assumption, hell, the expectation, that people know right from wrong, but they made the conscious decision to break the law anyway. That's why we have so many degrees of murder, from first degree to involuntary manslaughter. To say we aren't capable of determining right from wrong is to say we aren't capable of any higher thought, and we might as well be animals.
It's the same exact thing, and it still applies directly to voting. Exercising poor judgment = incapable of discerning right from wrong. "I want to take that food without paying because I am hungry and poor. I'm poor because the man is keeping me down, therefore my theft is justified."

People allow too many extraneous personal factors to influence their decision making (greed, religion, income bracket, etc.) when none of that should be a factor, and the criminal laws reflect this fact. Unfortunately, voting laws do not reflect it, and to call this anything other than a contradiction is nothing less than willful ignorance.

Nothing is accomplished by our government until we're on the brink of disaster or already beyond it, and it's getting worse as time progresses. Last year's supreme court decision opening the floodgates for corporate campaign finances will hopefully accelerate our trip down the road to disaster, because that's the only way anything will ever change...
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Old 05-25-2010, 12:40 PM Ralph is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Exercising poor judgment = incapable of discerning right from wrong. "I want to take that food without paying because I am hungry and poor. I'm poor because the man is keeping me down, therefore my theft is justified."

That's their rationalization for doing something wrong. They still know its wrong, they just think it's ok to do because they feel they have no other choice.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:20 PM Coqui is offline  
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Ralph
 
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That's their rationalization for doing something wrong. They still know its wrong, they just think it's ok to do because they feel they have no other choice.
Why nitpick the details? You're honestly not changing the point at all, just changing how it's stated. Do you correct people's grammar constantly too? Did I just put that apostrophe in the wrong place?

A large portion of the population lacks the necessary mental faculties to consistently determine right from wrong and exercise proper judgment.

Now can we move on?
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:22 PM Ralph is offline  
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topcat989
 
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That's their rationalization for doing something wrong. They still know its wrong, they just think it's ok to do because they feel they have no other choice.

No actually many don't believe it is wrong, just that they might get in trouble if caught. There's a difference.
Old 05-25-2010, 01:22 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Why nitpick the details? You're honestly not changing the point at all, just changing how it's stated. Do you correct people's grammar constantly too? Did I just put that apostrophe in the wrong place?

A large portion of the population lacks the necessary mental faculties to consistently determine right from wrong and exercise proper judgment.

Now can we move on?

I guess the way I see it, is kind of how topcat mentioned it. They don't want to get caught.

People who cheat on their significant others know it's wrong. They just do it because they want to or feel they need to. If they didn't know it was right or wrong, they wouldn't hide it from their spouse.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:51 PM Coqui is offline  
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Coqui
 
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No actually many don't believe it is wrong, just that they might get in trouble if caught. There's a difference.

Worrying about getting caught implies knowledge of right or wrong.
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Old 05-25-2010, 01:51 PM Coqui is offline  
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Frenetic
 
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A large portion of the population lacks the necessary mental faculties to consistently determine right from wrong and exercise proper judgment.

Now can we move on?

No, because you're still wrong. Just because you say these things doesn't make them true. What constitutes "necessary mental faculties" to you? What is proper judgment? Part of the human condition is that we're are creatures of reason and being social. However, we also have inner vice, self-advancement, and could be surrounded by bad environmental circumstances that can lead us to rationalize doing things we normally wouldn't do, like the Heinz dilemma.

And speaking of the Heinz dilemma, Kohlberg's stages of moral development throws some major kinks into your claim that a large portion of the population lacks the ability to make the right judgment calls. Just like the theory of cognitive development, people's morality systems become more advanced as they age, grow, and socialize with others, regardless of culture. The only way we don't advance is if we're isolated, retarded or clinically insane. Essentially, our morality starts by being punishment-driven, especially when we're children because we don't know any better. But as we grow older we learn and accept the conventions of society, and eventually recognize some universal concepts of the dignity of other human beings. These stages aren't great Eureka moments for human beings; they just evolve over time for all of us. It doesn't mean we are never fuck up after we reach these stages, but it does mean that it's natural for us to grow up and understand the rules of society, and that we understand the risks and penalties when we break the law.
Old 05-25-2010, 01:53 PM Frenetic is offline  
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Ralph
 
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What constitutes "necessary mental faculties" to you? What is proper judgment? Part of the human condition is that we're are creatures of reason and being social. However, we also have inner vice, self-advancement, and could be surrounded by bad environmental circumstances that can lead us to rationalize doing things we normally wouldn't do, like the Heinz dilemma.
Defining the necessary mental faculties is irrelevant, as are the environmental factors that caused someone to become immoral or unethical. Whether they became that way by choice or through the influence of others makes no difference, because once they're like that they cannot be allowed to exist in society with everyone else until they're "fixed."

Since I'm talking about the complete elimination of voting among the general population, standards to eliminate specific people or groups are unnecessary.

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And speaking of the Heinz dilemma, Kohlberg's stages of moral development throws some major kinks into your claim that a large portion of the population lacks the ability to make the right judgment calls. Just like the theory of cognitive development, people's morality systems become more advanced as they age, grow, and socialize with others, regardless of culture. The only way we don't advance is if we're isolated, retarded or clinically insane. Essentially, our morality starts by being punishment-driven, especially when we're children because we don't know any better. But as we grow older we learn and accept the conventions of society, and eventually recognize some universal concepts of the dignity of other human beings. These stages aren't great Eureka moments for human beings; they just evolve over time for all of us. It doesn't mean we are never fuck up after we reach these stages, but it does mean that it's natural for us to grow up and understand the rules of society, and that we understand the risks and penalties when we break the law.
My point stands regardless of how we develop our sense of morality.
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Old 05-25-2010, 02:11 PM Ralph is offline  
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Defining the necessary mental faculties is irrelevant, as are the environmental factors that caused someone to become immoral or unethical.
But these things are important, because you've said that these things are directly related to voting as well. If people lack the mental faculties to know the difference between right and wrong, then to you they shouldn't be allowed to vote, right? So yeah, getting the definitions of those things are pretty important, as you're suggesting stripping people of their national rights.

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Whether they became that way by choice or through the influence of others makes no difference, because once they're like that they cannot be allowed to exist in society with everyone else until they're "fixed."
I'm not arguing that. People that break the law should go to jail or whatever is decided to be the appropriate punishment. But having a lapse in judgment doesn't mean a person lacks reason or adequate mental faculties. It just means they fucked up in that instance. If they are multiple offenders, then maybe you'll have something, but even then environmental factors should be checked. Seriously, read the Heinz Dilemma if you haven't already.

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Since I'm talking about the complete elimination of voting among the general population, standards to eliminate specific people or groups are unnecessary.
But you're using the claim that the majority of people lack mental faculties to know right from wrong to justify this statement.

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My point stands regardless of how we develop our sense of morality.
No, because you're saying that something that occurs naturally in us is not in the majority of the population, which is at least 156,000,000 people. That's pretty problematic. Even people on the lowest stages of moral development won't murder a person because they'll know it's in their best interest not to break the law and risk going to jail. Even that low level of morality has reasoning to it.
Old 05-25-2010, 02:27 PM Frenetic is offline  
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Ralph
 
Uh... I dunno if you bothered reading anything beyond Wikipedia about that Kohlberg bulIshit, but it only documents the stages of moral development. It says absolutely nothing about people naturally developing a correct or valid sense of morality. Whoop-dee-frickin-doo?

It's not even the least bit relevant to this argument
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Old 05-25-2010, 07:16 PM Ralph is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
Uh... I dunno if you bothered reading anything beyond Wikipedia about that Kohlberg bulIshit, but it only documents the stages of moral development. It says absolutely nothing about people naturally developing a correct or valid sense of morality. Whoop-dee-frickin-doo?

It's not even the least bit relevant to this argument

He's trying to explain to you that people can have the mental capacity to see the distinction between right and wrong and still make the wrong choice.
Old 05-25-2010, 08:10 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Worrying about getting caught implies knowledge of right or wrong.

Yes, but not personal belief of the two.
Old 05-25-2010, 08:11 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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topcat989
 
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Worrying about getting caught implies knowledge of right or wrong.

more like knowledge of legal and illegal. Just a desire to avoid consequences, not a moral evaluation of right and wrong. In fact he can feel entirely morally right, and feel that everyone who disagrees, (such as his victims, cops & judge/jury) as wrong.
Old 05-25-2010, 09:55 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Renork
 
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Frencic, while I have not read your postings in the thread in depth yet you seem to be under the impression that everyone must necessarily progress through all stages of moral development(if Kohlberg's stages of moral development are in fact how humans typically develop a sense of morals). This is not necessarily so.

From what you linked.
Quote:
"Stages cannot be skipped; each provides a new and necessary perspective, more comprehensive and differentiated than its predecessors but integrated with them."

"The conventional level of moral reasoning is typical of adolescents and adults."
Typical, or in other words average, adolescents and adults generally make it to the conventional level of moral reasoning. Lets take a look at the chart.

Code:
 Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)

            1. Obedience and punishment orientation
                    (How can I avoid punishment?)

            2. Self-interest orientation
                    (What's in it for me?)

    Level 2 (Conventional)

            3. Interpersonal accord and conformity
                    (Social norms)
                    (The good boy/good girl attitude)

            4. Authority and social-order maintaining orientation
                    (Law and order morality)

    Level 3 (Post-Conventional)

            5. Social contract orientation

            6. Universal ethical principles
                    (Principled conscience)
Examining this I would argue that stages 1, 2, and 3 are not really what is being discussed as morality thus far in this thread.

You might be able to make a case for 4 and 5 being the start of the kind of morality you seemed to be discussing (truly understanding "right" from "wrong").

6 is probably where most people in this discussion would be comfortable as labeling someone as having a true understanding of morality.

But remember, the average person typically concludes their moral development in either stage 3 or 4. Further, presumably those below average(definitely those included in what Ralph is talking about) would not make it past stage 2 or in some cases past stage 1.

I would argue that your source is better evidence for Ralph's claims than for yours.
____

Edit: In response to other things you and Ralph posted. I believe Ralph is essentially saying that Law is necessary to enforce morality because many people in society to not make it past stages 1 or 2 of Kohlberg's Moral Development. However, this does not mean that because laws are necessary to enforce moral behavior that all laws and all ways laws can be applied are therefore moral.
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Last edited by Renork; 05-25-2010 at 11:02 PM..
Old 05-25-2010, 10:50 PM Renork is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Yes, but not personal belief of the two.

That's irrelevant. We're talking about right from wrong from a legal sense, not a moral sense. (at least initially we were)
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Old 05-26-2010, 05:49 AM Coqui is offline  
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