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Frock
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
That's sounds like a good way to further entrench us in regional economic feudalism. No thanks.

Explain this baseless attack and maybe I will agree.
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:40 PM Frock is offline  
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Frock
 
Is almost everyone here too stupid and obtuse to actually rationally discuss an idea?

I don't give a flying fuck if anyone just agrees or just disagrees with this idea. Lets hear why, you ignorant fucks.
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Old 03-17-2010, 08:41 PM Frock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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I see this as a problem for the current system, but not the non-profit one. A non-profit system could utilize vouchers with none of the drawbacks we normally associate with using vouchers for private organizations. Overall standards could be achieved the same way as they are now, with laws and standardized tests. What would change for the better would be the general attitude of education in general. Now we see education "pushing people through" so to speak, but with the non-profit design the individual schools would have the goal of providing a good education, while now it seems like schools have the goal of doing what it has to in order to meet government regulations. Although they would be regulated, they would have more flexibility on an individual level because only the "output" would be regulated, while the schools themselves could develop independent solutions to meet our needs. Much more "free market" in the sense that innovation would be fostered (non-profits want to do things cheaply because they need to look out for such things in a way government organizations do not) but also more stable.
My point was more that in more rural or poor areas, the students are not highly mobile. They're going to go to whatever school is most accessible to them, which really limits competition. Going to your system is going to make busing difficult as well, since it's pretty much unprofitable by default.

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Perhaps, but making them huge non-profits would be much more efficient (cheap) because profits would be reinvesting, rather than "going to the pigs."
Profit seeking behavior can be valuable though, and it's worked out fairly well in the energy exploration industry. There are certainly problems, but it doesn't appear to be a realm that's crying out to become a non-profit. Remove the profit incentive, and they're not going to take the same kinds of risks.
Old 03-17-2010, 08:54 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Jason
 
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keeping tabs on 300 million people

I have identified your error.
Old 03-17-2010, 09:01 PM Jason is offline  
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Frock
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
My point was more that in more rural or poor areas, the students are not highly mobile. They're going to go to whatever school is most accessible to them, which really limits competition. Going to your system is going to make busing difficult as well, since it's pretty much unprofitable by default.

How would it change busing at all? Whatever solutions these places have in place, be it government or government-subsidized for-profit companies, they could be replaced with non-profit duplicates, which would only be more efficient because they only exist to better themselves, not give money "to the pigs".


Quote:
Profit seeking behavior can be valuable though, and it's worked out fairly well in the energy exploration industry. There are certainly problems, but it doesn't appear to be a realm that's crying out to become a non-profit. Remove the profit incentive, and they're not going to take the same kinds of risks.
Profit seeking behavior is not only for money, people can be motivated all sorts of ways. For years all it took was a priest shouting at the sky for people to do whatever the hell they wanted. If we had a common-sense solution like this that people could look at and see "wow, this system exists only to better itself" then people would get behind it all the same, because value is not only in cash, it can be in things like strong or beneficial services.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:06 PM Frock is offline  
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Frock
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
My point was more that in more rural or poor areas, the students are not highly mobile. They're going to go to whatever school is most accessible to them, which really limits competition. Going to your system is going to make busing difficult as well, since it's pretty much unprofitable by default.

How would it change busing at all? Whatever solutions these places have in place, be it government or government-subsidized for-profit companies, they could be replaced with non-profit duplicates, which would only be more efficient because they only exist to better themselves, not give money "to the pigs". While being government regulated, they would have more independence than government-run services.


Quote:
Profit seeking behavior can be valuable though, and it's worked out fairly well in the energy exploration industry. There are certainly problems, but it doesn't appear to be a realm that's crying out to become a non-profit. Remove the profit incentive, and they're not going to take the same kinds of risks.
Profit seeking behavior is not only for money, people can be motivated all sorts of ways. For years all it took was a priest shouting at the sky for people to do whatever the hell they wanted. If we had a common-sense solution like this that people could look at and see "wow, this system exists only to better itself" then people would get behind it all the same, because value is not only in cash, it can be in things like strong or beneficial services.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:06 PM Frock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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How would it change busing at all? Whatever solutions these places have in place, be it government or government-subsidized for-profit companies, they could be replaced with non-profit duplicates, which would only be more efficient because they only exist to better themselves, not give money "to the pigs". While being government regulated, they would have more independence than government-run services.
This seems like an axiomatic argument, you're just saying "Non-profits are better" without really establishing why exactly that would work. How is a small non-profit school going to be able to run a bus system to pick up geographically dispersed students without losing a ton of money?

Quote:
Profit seeking behavior is not only for money, people can be motivated all sorts of ways. For years all it took was a priest shouting at the sky for people to do whatever the hell they wanted. If we had a common-sense solution like this that people could look at and see "wow, this system exists only to better itself" then people would get behind it all the same, because value is not only in cash, it can be in things like strong or beneficial services.
That seems to be "common sense" in the way that communism was common sense. There are a lot of benefits to for-profit ventures that aren't going to be duplicated in non-profits, investment for one. I understand the motivation for certain fields like utilities, health care, and education, fields where profit-motive ends up hurting consumers overall, but I don't think energy exploration is one of those regions.
Old 03-17-2010, 09:48 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Quote:
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oh look it's the alcoholic that likes following me around. someone shower him with a double amount of attention so he feels worthwhile

I follow YOU around? Your midol is in the other thread.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:28 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#23  

TheMorlock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I have identified your error.

He doesn't understand that it is not the american governments job to keep tabs on its populace. It's there to provide for the common defense and basic infrastructure.

The big irony though is he is from a country that would equate to nothing greater than a pimple on the ass of most of our states.
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Old 03-18-2010, 12:32 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#24  

Frock
 
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This seems like an axiomatic argument, you're just saying "Non-profits are better" without really establishing why exactly that would work. How is a small non-profit school going to be able to run a bus system to pick up geographically dispersed students without losing a ton of money?

Well, there would be a number of solutions. Many schools currently hire private companies to do their bussing, and some schools with wide ranges don't bus at all, they homeschool kids online or by phone. So if these services, which are now private contractors with a profit-motivated structure, were turned into non-profit contractors with a self-preservation motivated structure, then seemingly everything would be the same except at the end of the day the bottom line doesn't go into someone's pocket, it goes back into the company. (Non-profits are required to reinvest profits back into the company)

I don't think non-profits are better or worse, but I know that at the end of the day the profit money goes back into the company rather than into someone's pocket, and it only makes sense, to me at least, that that equals savings.



Quote:
There are a lot of benefits to for-profit ventures that aren't going to be duplicated in non-profits, investment for one. I understand the motivation for certain fields like utilities, health care, and education, fields where profit-motive ends up hurting consumers overall, but I don't think energy exploration is one of those regions.
See, I think this here is an axiomatic argument. Non-profits and for-profits operate exactly the same, except non-profits reinvest their profits back in. Did you know that before i mentioned it here? I didn't until recently...
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:49 AM Frock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Well, there would be a number of solutions. Many schools currently hire private companies to do their bussing, and some schools with wide ranges don't bus at all, they homeschool kids online or by phone. So if these services, which are now private contractors with a profit-motivated structure, were turned into non-profit contractors with a self-preservation motivated structure, then seemingly everything would be the same except at the end of the day the bottom line doesn't go into someone's pocket, it goes back into the company. (Non-profits are required to reinvest profits back into the company)

I don't think non-profits are better or worse, but I know that at the end of the day the profit money goes back into the company rather than into someone's pocket, and it only makes sense, to me at least, that that equals savings.
It may equal savings, but it's not automatically going to result in better or more competitive businesses (here, schools). Private schools (many of which are non-profit) rarely if ever offer busing. It's just too damn expensive, and non-profits don't want to lose money, just like for-profit companies.

Quote:
See, I think this here is an axiomatic argument. Non-profits and for-profits operate exactly the same, except non-profits reinvest their profits back in. Did you know that before i mentioned it here? I didn't until recently...
I knew about that, yes.

You're disregarding human motivation here. People don't want to take risks, or work really hard, without motivation. Profit provides that motivation. The non-profit system would work fine where risk is a bad thing, but I don't see energy exploration as one of those fields. You NEED to reward risk in speculative industries.

Also, in the real world, if you dig into non-profit entities, you'll find plenty of waste. Since they can't take profits, they commonly end up using money more frivolously than they would otherwise. Huge charitable organizations are notorious for this.
Old 03-18-2010, 09:39 AM Gibonius is offline  
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#26  

TheMorlock
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^^Red Cross for example with it's million dollar Office remodeling (price for a single office)
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:51 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#27  

pyramid
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1. Replace government-run and subsidized private companies in the fields of health, education, and utilities with small, non-profit organizations.
You mean like medicare/medicaid, public schools, state colleges, and state owned utilities? Like we already have?
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Old 03-18-2010, 04:11 PM pyramid is offline  
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Frock
 
Those aren't independent non-profit organizations, are they?
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Old 03-18-2010, 07:13 PM Frock is offline  
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#29  

Frock
 
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It may equal savings, but it's not automatically going to result in better or more competitive businesses (here, schools). Private schools (many of which are non-profit) rarely if ever offer busing. It's just too damn expensive, and non-profits don't want to lose money, just like for-profit companies.


I knew about that, yes.

You're disregarding human motivation here. People don't want to take risks, or work really hard, without motivation. Profit provides that motivation. The non-profit system would work fine where risk is a bad thing, but I don't see energy exploration as one of those fields. You NEED to reward risk in speculative industries.

Also, in the real world, if you dig into non-profit entities, you'll find plenty of waste. Since they can't take profits, they commonly end up using money more frivolously than they would otherwise. Huge charitable organizations are notorious for this.

Well then maybe just not include speculative industries? Is that the only problem you see?

In terms of waste, charitable organizations are much different, more porky, than non-profits like hostels and community centers that run extremely efficiently.
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Old 03-18-2010, 09:19 PM Frock is offline  
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