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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Two people with the exact same hypothetical situation? How much has Fox News been talking about cancer as an example of a failing system getting voted in?

Generally when one thinks of a disease or affliction with a prognosis of death in about a year, cancer comes to mind.

Great rebuttal!

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Only Republicans and right wingers have been calling this socialized health care. No one else really thought that.
Did I say anything about calling it socialized healthcare? I'm sure you're seen youtube videos of uninformed Obama supporters claiming that he's going to provide them all with free health care.

Go out on the street and ask someone the difference between the originally proposed UHC and the bill that was passed yesterday. 90% of them won't even realize that there was more than one approach to this by the Democrats.
Old 03-22-2010, 01:40 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I see.
Your clear and concise rebuttal has left me entirely disarmed.

What we're now going to be looking at is a "coverage" model instead of an "insurance" model (which was the case before but to a lesser extent)

I'm sure you can figure out the rationale behind this statement.

Very little has changed in practical terms. The poorest of Americans get subsidies to buy health insurance (which subsidizes private insurance instead of simply expanding medicare) and insurance companies cannot technically turn someone down/drop them due to pre-existing conditions. The subsidization of the poor is only a modest expansion of already existing programs and insurance companies can still stop people from buying into their plans by charging exorbitant premiums and I'm sure they'll still find ways to drop people just like they did with all those State laws that they've managed to wriggle around.

So I'm not really seeing how anything significant has changed.
Old 03-22-2010, 01:57 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by Amaroth View Post
This was a loss for America imho. America needs health reform. No one can argue that. I think few do. We should of taken steps to lower costs without increasing spending because at the current time in our history we can not afford to be spending this much money. If you had opened up insurance across state lines it would of allowed the price of insurance to come down for 5 yrs or so. At least until the new monopoly lines were drawn. Tort reform also would of helped. Also the CBO comes out with an estimate that makes no sense to me. How are we saving money? We spend 940 billion to save 130-140 something billion over 10 years. The next 10 years we save some 1.3 trillion. What are we saving? That math doesn't make sense to me. Then think about how not one government spending project comes in on target.

I will also say this. Take me to jail if I loose my job and don't have health insurance anymore. I'm not paying a fine because I won't pay for some ones health care. It is my choice!!!

The issue with Health Care, Social Security, and any other government program boils down to a simple issue. They can not manage their money. They tax products 2-3 times before we buy them, federal income taxes, taxes on the internet, phone service, cable service, cars, you name it they tax it. There is no excuse why they can't run a balanced budget. Take a page from a state such as Texas. It is state law that they operate and have to maintain a balanced budget.

I'm not college educated. Well I never got my degree at least. I dropped out of High School and got my GED. America doesn't owe me a damn thing. I chose my path. I live with the consequences. I'd rather work 3 jobs than accept welfare! These people who think they are entitled make me sick. I'm lucky I have health care and a job at the moment and I'm thankful for it every day. I worked for it. Nothing in life is free or comes without hard work.

Edit: Just remembered. This is also in the bill. Students now will only get student loans from the government. Niiice!
Have fun with your self flagellation and false consciousness.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:08 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
Anyone else just see this as losing more rights? I can see mandatory car insurance - I agree driving is a privellege not a right. But if someone wants to be fat and unhealthy, that is beginning to look illegal or something? But I guess suicide is illegal...

My problem is if you want to advocate healthy people, you can't have both ways. What I mean by that is simply if you want mandatory health insurance, you need to stop promoting unhealthy shit that kills us (and makes taxpayers pay for) such as smoking (Obama durr hurr) and Alcohol (Brain cells amirite?).
If the State actually tried to improve the basic problems with American health (soft drinks, tons of carbs, lack of subsidized healthy food, lack of access to proper medical care) you would just whine about government intervention and how they're taking away your rights to eat shit and giving your money to the poor.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:10 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Patriotic Eagle
 
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Originally Posted by s0me0nesmind1 View Post
Agreed. You kinda take away your own right to live by choosing not to work. or eat. or be productive. or try. or... but don't worry, we have legitimate people to bail you out and consequently fuck ourselves while giving you handjobs err handouts.

The funny thing is you have a right to 'live' but you don't have a right to die.

The majority of people who are getting subsidized by this bill have jobs. The majority of people go bankrupt from medical problems are middle class and have health insurance at the beginning of their illness.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:16 PM Patriotic Eagle is offline  
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Have fun with your self flagellation and false consciousness.

You got me! Time will tell if the country can afford it and if once again a social program balloons out of control like they all have. If you actually read my post i'm not against reform. I also said the problem is with the government. Both parties. They can't run these programs on a budget which is why we are in this situation. You, myself and every other individual in the world has to balance their budget. Our government seems to be exempt and the state of California.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:27 PM Amaroth is offline  
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
Generally when one thinks of a disease or affliction with a prognosis of death in about a year, cancer comes to mind.
You missed the point. You need insurance to get the prognosis that you have a year left to live. Otherwise, they won't diagnose you (until it's too late anyways)

Also I can think of quite a few things that you can die from in a short time that aren't cancer.

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Did I say anything about calling it socialized healthcare? I'm sure you're seen youtube videos of uninformed Obama supporters claiming that he's going to provide them all with free health care.

Go out on the street and ask someone the difference between the originally proposed UHC and the bill that was passed yesterday. 90% of them won't even realize that there was more than one approach to this by the Democrats.
This I can't argue with really. If a person spent 1 minute looking up information, they would know it wasn't going to be free. But I can't vouch that people supporting (or denying) actually read anything and aren't just spewing something they heard from someone else.
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Old 03-22-2010, 02:30 PM Coqui is offline  
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teh scud
 
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japan has cheaper health insurance, mandated but still lets patients pick doctors/hospitals, and they have more medical equipment than the US (MRI machines etc) per capita. japan has very strict cost controls in place that seem to work almost too well.

in america, we pay shitloads for the simplest of needles -- doctors do more surgeries, not because it's necessarily good for the patient, but because they earn more money doing more surgeries. it's flat out retarded.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/ikegami.html this interview gives some insight into japanese health care. you can cross reference it with other sources if you want, but from what i've read, it seems pretty fair. i haven't read it all, so i don't know if it really addresses the problems with japanese healthcare, which are ironically enough, the opposite problems we face in america -- in japan, the biggest problems are that doctors and hospitals don't make enough money (despite this, competition in medical schools keeps going up). it seems to me that somewhere in between japan and america's health care, there's a pretty great solution.
Old 03-22-2010, 02:42 PM teh scud is offline  
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s0me0nesmind1
 
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Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
If the State actually tried to improve the basic problems with American health (soft drinks, tons of carbs, lack of subsidized healthy food, lack of access to proper medical care) you would just whine about government intervention and how they're taking away your rights to eat shit and giving your money to the poor.

Right - totally agreed. Im just saying you can't promote it by saying "Here: Smoke these cancer sticks for the price of $1 in taxes per pack, that will cover the six figure surgery you will require eventually" then say "no-no-no even you fine healthy people who spend their days working out, buy this health insurance that even these cancer infected mules have to buy."
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Old 03-22-2010, 03:35 PM s0me0nesmind1 is offline  
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Regime|Life
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Originally Posted by teh scud View Post
japan has cheaper health insurance, mandated but still lets patients pick doctors/hospitals, and they have more medical equipment than the US (MRI machines etc) per capita. japan has very strict cost controls in place that seem to work almost too well.

in america, we pay shitloads for the simplest of needles -- doctors do more surgeries, not because it's necessarily good for the patient, but because they earn more money doing more surgeries. it's flat out retarded.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...s/ikegami.html this interview gives some insight into japanese health care. you can cross reference it with other sources if you want, but from what i've read, it seems pretty fair. i haven't read it all, so i don't know if it really addresses the problems with japanese healthcare, which are ironically enough, the opposite problems we face in america -- in japan, the biggest problems are that doctors and hospitals don't make enough money (despite this, competition in medical schools keeps going up). it seems to me that somewhere in between japan and america's health care, there's a pretty great solution.

The problem with adapting this health care system is that us North American's don't eat like the Japanese do. We eat shit which in turn gets us even more sick and therefore wouldn't really work here unless we changed how we all ate which I doubt will happen anytime soon.

Though the idea seems right, and it shows that they using both government run health insurance and also public health care systems, both of which were ideas into US reform but shot down drastically because the GOP and its socialist/communist scare tactics. A private AND public option is the best way to go and its proven over and over again.
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Old 03-22-2010, 03:54 PM Regime|Life is offline  
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teh scud
 
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Originally Posted by Regime|Life View Post
The problem with adapting this health care system is that us North American's don't eat like the Japanese do. We eat shit which in turn gets us even more sick and therefore wouldn't really work here unless we changed how we all ate which I doubt will happen anytime soon.
definitely true. but now that health insurance companies can't turn down people with pre-existing conditions and can't drop people like they used to be able to, health insurance companies could actually start caring about the general health of their customers -- having them lobby for better availability of healthy foods could help with our shitty eating habits.
Old 03-22-2010, 04:04 PM teh scud is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
You missed the point. You need insurance to get the prognosis that you have a year left to live. Otherwise, they won't diagnose you (until it's too late anyways)

Also I can think of quite a few things that you can die from in a short time that aren't cancer.

Then what's the big deal with insurance companies not accepting people with pre-existing conditions already? I mean if they have to have insurance in order to get the diagnosis, then it isn't a problem. (obviously you can get dropped but something like 95% of people who take the insurance companies to court over this shit end up getting millions for the health care costs plus damages.)

And my point with the cancer thing is some forms leave enough time to actually get insurance and get treatment before you die.

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This I can't argue with really. If a person spent 1 minute looking up information, they would know it wasn't going to be free. But I can't vouch that people supporting (or denying) actually read anything and aren't just spewing something they heard from someone else.
Which was my point. I would think that quite a few people are going to be hassling doctors and nurses for quite awhile because they're under the wrong impression that they get free healthcare now because Obama said so.
Old 03-22-2010, 04:49 PM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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pyramid
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post


I'm predicting hordes of uninsured people at hospitals and clinics sometime in the very near future.

That's what we have now.
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Old 03-22-2010, 05:27 PM pyramid is offline  
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I'm hardly a right-winger, but if you think that people living in shacks in Detroit and South Los Angeles understand this bill and the fact that they don't get free health care whenever they want, then you're the
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Go out on the street and ask someone the difference between the originally proposed UHC and the bill that was passed yesterday. 90% of them won't even realize that there was more than one approach to this by the Democrats.
What exactly is the point of this line of commentary, other than "LULZ stupid liberals"?
Old 03-22-2010, 05:40 PM Gibonius is offline  
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BigFuzzyArchon
 
 
health care is not a right
Old 03-22-2010, 05:50 PM BigFuzzyArchon is offline  
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