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Millions
Genmay Art Gawd
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
I'm all for a fat tax as long as they go by actual fat and not BMI

Too much federal intervention for me...it's a slippery slope. Although I could totally see a branch of the IRS coming out to everyone's house with those little fat pinchers, making sure everyone's gut is in check.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:12 AM Millions is offline  
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How so?

taxes

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Old 03-23-2010, 08:15 AM tanner9072 is offline  
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Coqui
 
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taxes

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ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

Except with what we're discussing, you wouldn't get taxed if you had insurance and the tax you get counters the increase for me taking care of your uninsured ass.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:21 AM Coqui is offline  
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Except with what we're discussing, you wouldn't get taxed if you had insurance and the tax you get counters the increase for me taking care of your uninsured ass.

You definitely get taxed whether you have insurance or not.

Do you really think health care exists in a vacuum?
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:45 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
You definitely get taxed whether you have insurance or not.

Do you really think health care exists in a vacuum?

I was talking about actually pertaining to the government saying you need to purchase insurance or you get fined.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:25 AM Coqui is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Millions View Post
Reading about some of the new taxes being imposed for this new bill...among one of the more ridiculous grabs is a 10% tax on indoor tanning services. Granted, if you're throwing yourself under a hot bed of UV rays you're probably not doing your best to stay out of the skin care ward....but I wonder at what point they'll throw on a 10% red meat tax, or a fat tax? Or a 'riding your bike without elbow pads' tax...

Now to really get the funds rolling in is a liberal stupidity tax
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:57 AM mofugger is offline  
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#111  

TheMorlock
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Originally Posted by sMiLeYz View Post
Loads of people didn't like social security, medicare, civil rights act either when they got passed. They'll learn to live.

you do understand that social security is a ponsi scheme and would be illegal for a private citizen/company to implement? And that you need an ever expanding pool of young people to pay into it to keep it running? And that instead we have an ever expanding pool of old people drawing from it? That it was doomed from the beginning even before the government borrowed all its funds to pay for pork spending?
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:04 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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#112  

Coqui
 
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Posted this in the main forum thread as well but:

Here's what I would like to see happen with health care. I don't know how stupid this sounds, but in my head it makes sense. I don't know how feasible it would be either.

Government sponsored preventative care. The governent pays for the preventative care. One exam per year for adults. Kids vaccines, exams, etc. are covered. During that checkup, your risk factors are determined. They do not get reported back to the government. You pay for athletic physicals, etc. on your own (they shouldn't be that expensive) It is up to you to purchase your own disaster/injury/sickness insurance. Based on your own risk factors the insurance companies determine your premiums. (Like they do now) The difference is that government sets a ceiling to how high a company can make your premiums. (set by financial group comprised both of medical professionals as well as insurance professionals) Price varies based off of your deductible as well as an option for a 0 premium for an HSA type insurance (High deductible, but a monthly fee that goes into a savings account set specifically for these cases - usually $25/month) Now I don't know how much this will drop prices, but I would assume this would make disaster insurance at or around $100/month at most for a family. Dependant are covered till 25 years of age.

Regarding medication - New medicines related to research will be given a stipend from the government to offset the costs of research (will not be 100%) Medications will be made available after that to other companies to produce as needed as generics. As usual, patents will allow the creating company to make the medication first. However, they are allowed to sell it at most 75% increase to the cost of production + a small profit. So when generics come out, they will be 25% cheaper (as opposed to 500-600% cheaper in some cases)

Maintenance medications (insulin, etc.) will be split between government health care, and privatized health care to cover the costs. This will require a medicine added premium to services to off set costs which will go all to the private insurance company. Again a ceiling will be set.

Tort Reform - Yes. Sure it's only 1% but it will still help.

Taxes - Yes, you'll have to pay taxes. For Full time employees making over $40,000/year $10 a month will be deducted. For $100,000/year $20 a month will be deducted. This is a flat rate and will not change if you have multiple dependants or no dependants. This will not be enough to pay for all the preventative care/medication, but will severely offset the costs.

The government has no access to your medical records. It only receives an indication from the private insurance that you are receiving preventative care and/or need maintenance medication.

I don't know how good or bad Medicare/Medicaid is nor do I know its finer points so I can't touch that
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Old 03-23-2010, 11:41 AM Coqui is offline  
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There was an article in a Belgian newspaper today about the US healthcare system by the numbers. Pretty mind boggling really.

The Belgian system would be labeled socialist/hippy communist by US standards. It is government run and covers about everybody. And the Belgian cost was about less than half in absolute numbers per capita. 10.2% of GDP vs. 16% of the current/old US system. At the same time the performance of the US system was mediocre at best, and the average life expectancy of Americans is also about a year and a half shorter.
and belgium has less people than LA or NYC.
not all ideas scale perfectly, especially when bureaucracy seems to scale exponentially. no western country 1/3 the size of the US has attempted this.
if everyone could be covered for everything and we were guaranteed that it would cost everyone less than or equal to what they currently pay, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone to vote against that.
instead, what we have is incredibly partisan politicking with everyone throwing out numbers. the truth is we won't know how much it costs until it's been in action for many years. if the CBO numbers being thrown around are within a couple hundred billion of the actual cost, I'd be incredibly surprised. if their estimate was higher than the actual cost I would shit myself.
Old 03-23-2010, 03:25 PM isugoat is offline  
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#114  

Gibonius
 
Whatever you happen to think about the details of this bill: The issue basically boils down to the fact that we've been unable to address the problem of health care for at least 30 years. The Democrats have tried before, and been shot down. The Republicans have "ideas" (some of them good, I started a thread about a good Republican bill), but they have no apparent interest in actually passing them when they have the ability to. They haven't even passed tort reform, one of their supposed health care keys, despite having the legislative muscle to do so at many points. Presumably it was more valuable as a talking point than as legislation.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Republicans were just not going to address this problem. The Democratic bill may not be the best, but this bill addresses at least some of the serious problems in our system. There are lots of ways we could have gotten a better bill, but both parties combined to lead to this.



On a side note, I'm waiting for financial reform to come around, we'll really be able to see who the brainless conservative drones are then. Anyone who comes out spouting the Wall Street line against reform is pretty much incorrigible.
Old 03-23-2010, 04:37 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Whatever you happen to think about the details of this bill: The issue basically boils down to the fact that we've been unable to address the problem of health care for at least 30 years. The Democrats have tried before, and been shot down. The Republicans have "ideas" (some of them good, I started a thread about a good Republican bill), but they have no apparent interest in actually passing them when they have the ability to. They haven't even passed tort reform, one of their supposed health care keys, despite having the legislative muscle to do so at many points. Presumably it was more valuable as a talking point than as legislation.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Republicans were just not going to address this problem. The Democratic bill may not be the best, but this bill addresses at least some of the serious problems in our system. There are lots of ways we could have gotten a better bill, but both parties combined to lead to this.



On a side note, I'm waiting for financial reform to come around, we'll really be able to see who the brainless conservative drones are then. Anyone who comes out spouting the Wall Street line against reform is pretty much incorrigible.

Exactly. Disagree with the current reform or not, at least something is being done which may open the door for further reform to actually get it right so that no one could argue with the results (well that last part is impossible, but you get what I mean)
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:23 PM Coqui is offline  
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#116  

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Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
which has nothing to do with being civilized but everything with spending a fuckton of money unwisely.

pfft

we took civilization to the fucking moon, motherfucker


the fucking MOON
Old 03-23-2010, 05:23 PM SemperFly is offline  
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#117  

Zangmonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isugoat View Post
and belgium has less people than LA or NYC.
not all ideas scale perfectly, especially when bureaucracy seems to scale exponentially. no western country 1/3 the size of the US has attempted this.
if everyone could be covered for everything and we were guaranteed that it would cost everyone less than or equal to what they currently pay, I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone to vote against that.
instead, what we have is incredibly partisan politicking with everyone throwing out numbers. the truth is we won't know how much it costs until it's been in action for many years. if the CBO numbers being thrown around are within a couple hundred billion of the actual cost, I'd be incredibly surprised. if their estimate was higher than the actual cost I would shit myself.


Furthermore, Belgium has a significant VAT.
This is not uncommon in many European (and healthcare providing) countries.
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Old 03-23-2010, 05:36 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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#118  

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Furthermore, Belgium has a significant VAT.
This is not uncommon in many European (and healthcare providing) countries.

When we're talking about health care, the money is going to get spent one way or another. I don't want to see EU level taxes here, but I'm sure they don't want to see 20% GDP spending (and rising) on health care.
Old 03-23-2010, 05:44 PM Gibonius is offline  
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#119  

Arjuna
 
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If she had less than 2 hours to live as a result of whatever it was when you went to the hospital, and prolonging her life found that condition, then yes, your example actualy can be used here. If not, then you needed insurance before any of this happened......

Wait...

Are you actually arguing the point that uninsured / unfunded patients do not get treated in ERs or admitted to hospitals unless they are critically ill and actively dying?

Where do you live?

For the purposes of injecting some fact into this discussion, the verbiage used in EMTALA to define an "emergency medical condition" for which treatment is mandated:

Quote:
A medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in placing the health of the individual (or, with respect to a pregnant woman, the health of the woman or her unborn child) in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part. ("With respect to a pregnant woman who is having contractions: that there is inadequate time to effect a safe transfer to another hospital before delivery, or that the transfer may pose a threat to the health or safety of the woman or her unborn child."
That ends up being pretty broad, not to mention significant workup is often necessary to even ascertain what is going on and determine that a person is, in fact, stable and non-acute appropriate for turning away without further treatment.
Old 03-23-2010, 07:01 PM Arjuna is offline  
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