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Arjuna
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Whatever you happen to think about the details of this bill: The issue basically boils down to the fact that we've been unable to address the problem of health care for at least 30 years. The Democrats have tried before, and been shot down. The Republicans have "ideas" (some of them good, I started a thread about a good Republican bill), but they have no apparent interest in actually passing them when they have the ability to. They haven't even passed tort reform, one of their supposed health care keys, despite having the legislative muscle to do so at many points. Presumably it was more valuable as a talking point than as legislation.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Republicans were just not going to address this problem. The Democratic bill may not be the best, but this bill addresses at least some of the serious problems in our system. There are lots of ways we could have gotten a better bill, but both parties combined to lead to this.

This is it right here.
Old 03-23-2010, 07:02 PM Arjuna is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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This is it right here.

So, are you going to be finding a new profession? I hear that all our doctors are now going to be unable to make a living and are going to become taxi drivers or something.


/conservative rant radio mode
Old 03-23-2010, 07:10 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Arjuna
 
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So, are you going to be finding a new profession? I hear that all our doctors are now going to be unable to make a living and are going to become taxi drivers or something.


/conservative rant radio mode

Oh yeah. Posting on my smartphone while I can still afford it as I run for the hills.

In the end it will probably be a mixed bag, but something clearly had to be done.
Old 03-23-2010, 07:14 PM Arjuna is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
When we're talking about health care, the money is going to get spent one way or another. I don't want to see EU level taxes here, but I'm sure they don't want to see 20% GDP spending (and rising) on health care.

Excepting that our current (old) mode of expenditure had yielded the best health care system on Earth.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:28 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Whatever you happen to think about the details of this bill: The issue basically boils down to the fact that we've been unable to address the problem of health care for at least 30 years. The Democrats have tried before, and been shot down. The Republicans have "ideas" (some of them good, I started a thread about a good Republican bill), but they have no apparent interest in actually passing them when they have the ability to. They haven't even passed tort reform, one of their supposed health care keys, despite having the legislative muscle to do so at many points. Presumably it was more valuable as a talking point than as legislation.

I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that the Republicans were just not going to address this problem. The Democratic bill may not be the best, but this bill addresses at least some of the serious problems in our system. There are lots of ways we could have gotten a better bill, but both parties combined to lead to this.

Best Cliffs of a year long heated debate ever.
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Old 03-24-2010, 12:19 AM pyramid is offline  
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Best Cliffs of a year long heated debate ever.

I agree.
We should start a fund to get those cliffs to all media outlets
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Old 03-24-2010, 01:05 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Excepting that our current (old) mode of expenditure had yielded the best health care system on Earth.

That's your opinion. In terms of official rankings, not one review that I know of has us ranked as the best health care system. If you know of one (besides Rush Limbaugh's mouth) please provide one.
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:43 AM Coqui is offline  
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Wait...

Are you actually arguing the point that uninsured / unfunded patients do not get treated in ERs or admitted to hospitals unless they are critically ill and actively dying?

Where do you live?

For the purposes of injecting some fact into this discussion, the verbiage used in EMTALA to define an "emergency medical condition" for which treatment is mandated:



That ends up being pretty broad, not to mention significant workup is often necessary to even ascertain what is going on and determine that a person is, in fact, stable and non-acute appropriate for turning away without further treatment.

I just gave two examples. The point is they just have to stabilize. They don't have to diagnose. If they find the diagnosis during stabilization, then so be it.....but they won't be trying to take care of everything wrong with the person.
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:46 AM Coqui is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Excepting that our current (old) mode of expenditure had yielded the best health care system on Earth.

The best at the top end, sure. If you had the money, you could get really really good care. But we spend the most money to cover the fewest people, and we're spending more money every year, putting care out of the reach of more people every year. Even today, people in the middle class are feeling significant pressure from the costs. Additionally, with our employer based system, it was putting an incredible strain on our businesses. It was an unsustainable system, we simply couldn't allow health care to become 25-30% of our entire economy as it was trending towards.
Old 03-24-2010, 06:11 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
That's your opinion. In terms of official rankings, not one review that I know of has us ranked as the best health care system. If you know of one (besides Rush Limbaugh's mouth) please provide one.

The best in terms of success rates and availability to those able to pay....
Just look at all the foreign nationals that came here for their surgeries and care rather than staying in their own country's system.

I contend that the rate of people coming IN for excellent practitioners far exceeds the rate of people going OUT for the same reason.

Note that I said "excellent" not "cheap"
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:10 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
The best at the top end, sure. If you had the money, you could get really really good care. But we spend the most money to cover the fewest people, and we're spending more money every year, putting care out of the reach of more people every year. Even today, people in the middle class are feeling significant pressure from the costs. Additionally, with our employer based system, it was putting an incredible strain on our businesses. It was an unsustainable system, we simply couldn't allow health care to become 25-30% of our entire economy as it was trending towards.

Yes but correcting the employer-based system could be accomplished without such sweeping legislation.

EDIT: In fact, you can either contend one of two things now. Either they aim to bolster the employer-based system by imposing fines or they intend to discourage employer-based systems by forcing employers to opt for "fixed-cost" alternatives and instead boost government revenues using new fines.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:11 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Yes but correcting the employer-based system could be accomplished without such sweeping legislation.

EDIT: In fact, you can either contend one of two things now. Either they aim to bolster the employer-based system by imposing fines or they intend to discourage employer-based systems by forcing employers to opt for "fixed-cost" alternatives and instead boost government revenues using new fines.

you didn't reply to the most central statement of yours that was contended.

How/why and by which standards did the US have the best healthcare system in the world?
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:20 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Originally Posted by Bukkakeboy View Post
you didn't reply to the most central statement of yours that was contended.

How/why and by which standards did the US have the best healthcare system in the world?

in the meter of "best available" and not "best for everybody at every level" Gibonius did not disagree with me.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:42 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Coqui
 
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The best in terms of success rates and availability to those able to pay....
Just look at all the foreign nationals that came here for their surgeries and care rather than staying in their own country's system.

This is not concrete evidence that we have the best health care.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:52 AM Coqui is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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This is not concrete evidence that we have the best health care.

So would you agree or disagree we have the best health care in the world of you can afford it?
Old 03-24-2010, 09:10 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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