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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Next time you people starting chanting "reduce waste fraud and abuse" in order to cut taxes I'm gonna link you back to all these posts where you get a hard on for military spending, since defense spending is BY FAR where the most waste fraud and abuse of government spending occurs.

Sounds to me like you pulled that out of your ass as well. Without actual figures, you can't definitively state which government department wastes the most money per capita. Further, you can't deny the fact that most of the high technology you're using on a daily basis came from "wasteful military spending".

I've worked in government facilities before. We don't need to raise taxes to close the gap.
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Old 04-14-2010, 09:59 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Sounds to me like you pulled that out of your ass as well. Without actual figures, you can't definitively state which government department wastes the most money per capita. Further, you can't deny the fact that most of the high technology you're using on a daily basis came from "wasteful military spending".

I've worked in government facilities before. We don't need to raise taxes to close the gap.
I think he's one of those people who think all military spending is "waste and abuse". I find it ironic that people who harp on all the money wasted on military technology do so using the internet...which among other things probably wouldn't have been developed simply for civilian use.
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:35 AM joemama is offline  
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Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
Next time you people starting chanting "reduce waste fraud and abuse" in order to cut taxes I'm gonna link you back to all these posts where you get a hard on for military spending, since defense spending is BY FAR where the most waste fraud and abuse of government spending occurs.

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"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"

"reduce waste fraud and abuse"


I did my part. Your turn.

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MORON ALERT
I knew you didn't have the balls to put your money where your mouth is
Old 04-14-2010, 10:53 AM topcat989 is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
I think he's one of those people who think all military spending is "waste and abuse". I find it ironic that people who harp on all the money wasted on military technology do so using the internet...which among other things probably wouldn't have been developed simply for civilian use.

It's not even just that. People don't seem to understand what goes where with the US military budget. They automatically equate "military spending = supposed to kill people", which their university professors who've never stepped foot outside of academia has told them is wrong 100% and responsible for all hardships in the world, and global warming. It's not even close to that. Veterans support and benefits, salaries, and research take up significant portions of the US military budget, and as a dollar figure taking into account USD buying power and percentage of GDP, US military spending is hardly off the chart.

I always found it comical the number of left wing idiots who were protesting the Canadian purchase of C-17 transport aircraft, saying the money would be better spent elsewhere, and yet they're the first one to claim Canada should be sending men and materials to every location that encounters a natural disaster. I guess they assume those materials just move themselves, no need to waste money on "cargo planes" .
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:42 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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joemama
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
It's not even just that. People don't seem to understand what goes where with the US military budget. They automatically equate "military spending = supposed to kill people", which their university professors who've never stepped foot outside of academia has told them is wrong 100% and responsible for all hardships in the world, and global warming. It's not even close to that. Veterans support and benefits, salaries, and research take up significant portions of the US military budget, and as a dollar figure taking into account USD buying power and percentage of GDP, US military spending is hardly off the chart.

I always found it comical the number of left wing idiots who were protesting the Canadian purchase of C-17 transport aircraft, saying the money would be better spent elsewhere, and yet they're the first one to claim Canada should be sending men and materials to every location that encounters a natural disaster. I guess they assume those materials just move themselves, no need to waste money on "cargo planes" .
The lefties are simply trying to say that Canuckistan needs to develop teleportation devices. Whats wrong with that?
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:04 AM joemama is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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The lefties are simply trying to say that Canuckistan needs to develop teleportation devices. Whats wrong with that?

Yeah, good point, never thought about it from that perspective!
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:46 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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since defense spending is BY FAR where the most waste fraud and abuse of government spending occurs.

Wanna prove that?
Old 04-15-2010, 09:14 AM SemperFly is offline  
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Wanna prove that?

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Old 04-15-2010, 10:09 AM Namtaru is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Wanna prove that?

He probably doesn't. Proving things isn't his strongest skill, making baseless statements is.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:11 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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I requisitioned seven
Old 04-15-2010, 10:32 AM SemperFly is offline  
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bingstudent
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A vast portion of US defense spending is essentially a highly entrenched southern state job stimulus program.

Contracting is fundamentally broken, not competitive, and designed to let politicians hide pork for their states under the guise of "national security."

The system is designed to require more jobs than necessary to do the job, rely on more contractors than necessary to complete the project. If the politicians didn't do it that way then they'd have less pie to share.

When comparison studies are done between US procurement and other nations they usually show that the US gets ripped off. This is a fact that's pretty frequently referred to in Defense News, where I've seen editorials that advocate bringing total defense spending back down to 300B (1990s levels). Realistically, procurement should be about one fifth to one third the size it is now. Even Gates has said the entire procurement process is broken, needs reform, and should command less of the budget.

The Defense budget is 533B this year, that doesn't represent the total cost of US military spending because the nuclear arsenal is budgeted through Energy and some space assets are budgeted through NASA. Some estimates of the unitary US military budget reach 750B. That's one Obama stimulus every year to purchase our "security." We are not getting a good deal compared to other nations that have less parochial budgeting processes.

China's military budget is about one tenth that of the US, but because China's budgeting has a strong focused strategy it makes large strides towards achieving it's current global military objectives. China's navy is now pretty much the first one you call to provide trade security or fight pirates in East Asia and the Indian ocean, a job that used to belong to the US. Meanwhile in Washington, they pay ten times as much and still can't win their wars!

The grand strategy needs to be rethought, even if we don't want to expand entitlements the US cannot afford the costs of being global sheriff anymore.
Old 04-15-2010, 03:02 PM bingstudent is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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And none of that proves that it's more wasteful than other government programs. Try again.
Old 04-15-2010, 03:35 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bingstudent View Post
A vast portion of US defense spending is essentially a highly entrenched southern state job stimulus program.

Contracting is fundamentally broken, not competitive, and designed to let politicians hide pork for their states under the guise of "national security."

The system is designed to require more jobs than necessary to do the job, rely on more contractors than necessary to complete the project. If the politicians didn't do it that way then they'd have less pie to share.

When comparison studies are done between US procurement and other nations they usually show that the US gets ripped off. This is a fact that's pretty frequently referred to in Defense News, where I've seen editorials that advocate bringing total defense spending back down to 300B (1990s levels). Realistically, procurement should be about one fifth to one third the size it is now. Even Gates has said the entire procurement process is broken, needs reform, and should command less of the budget.

The Defense budget is 533B this year, that doesn't represent the total cost of US military spending because the nuclear arsenal is budgeted through Energy and some space assets are budgeted through NASA. Some estimates of the unitary US military budget reach 750B. That's one Obama stimulus every year to purchase our "security." We are not getting a good deal compared to other nations that have less parochial budgeting processes.

China's military budget is about one tenth that of the US, but because China's budgeting has a strong focused strategy it makes large strides towards achieving it's current global military objectives. China's navy is now pretty much the first one you call to provide trade security or fight pirates in East Asia and the Indian ocean, a job that used to belong to the US. Meanwhile in Washington, they pay ten times as much and still can't win their wars!

The grand strategy needs to be rethought, even if we don't want to expand entitlements the US cannot afford the costs of being global sheriff anymore.

And this is somehow unique to the military among all government programs?

Secondly, you really can't compare the army of a Communist state to that of a Western democracy in terms of what they're spending. Chinese salaries, for example, are a fraction of their American equivalents. Of course you're going to be able to squeeze more out of your dollar when you're not required to pay on the same scale.
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:59 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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bingstudent
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Originally Posted by SemperFly View Post
And none of that proves that it's more wasteful than other government programs. Try again.

Only two other programs in the federal budget are on par with the size of defense, those two other programs (while flawed) actually provide something useful to Americans, defense spending has the opposite effect (it results in the loss of life of Americans). Seems pretty easy to conclude that defense spending is full of waste.

Plus no other government purchasing program is as corrupted and inefficient as military procurement, that's literally 150B down the drain every year. The best estimates for what we can save via reducing waste, fraud, and abuse in social security and medicare are numbers in the tens of billions, not hundreds.
Old 04-16-2010, 10:46 AM bingstudent is offline  
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bingstudent
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Secondly, you really can't compare the army of a Communist state to that of a Western democracy in terms of what they're spending. Chinese salaries, for example, are a fraction of their American equivalents. Of course you're going to be able to squeeze more out of your dollar when you're not required to pay on the same scale.

A lot of China's military assets are foreign imports ... one major topic in defense spending research is purchasing efficiency for nations that procure domestically v. those that do it via foreign channels. The nations that buy their military domestically almost always get ripped off, it's because of the way the defense industry becomes entrenched in politics.

You make a good point about Chinese service members and the Chinese defense industry probably receiving less compensation but two things immediately come to mind: 1) it's not like China doesn't have the treasury capabilities to afford a much more expensive military, it's just that China invests in other domestic priorities instead (high-speed rail, renewable energy, education); and 2) the US doesn't exactly have a good track record of paying well and taking care of its soldiers lately either.
Old 04-16-2010, 10:51 AM bingstudent is offline  
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