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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
Yeah, don't blame the illegals that are breaking the law

Yes I'm the dumbass. Read up on supply and demand, then come back.

Let me make it simpler for you.

If companies didn't hire illegals, there would be no work for them to come here for and get paid less than minimum wage for. No jobs = No desire
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:33 AM Coqui is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by domonbaylespam View Post
theyre both breaking the law.

Yes, but exclusively blaming the companies that hire them (read: wealthy white men) is ignorant.
Old 04-30-2010, 09:39 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Yes I'm the dumbass. Read up on supply and demand, then come back.

Let me make it simpler for you.

If companies didn't hire illegals, there would be no work for them to come here for and get paid less than minimum wage for. No jobs = No desire

If illegals didn't come here and break the law, then there wouldn't be any illegals here breaking the law either

And do you seriously believe that?

The standard of living in Mexico is so low that being an unemployed illegal here is preferable to living in an aluminium shack down there.
Old 04-30-2010, 09:42 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Wouldn't those fit under refugees and Asylum?
Would you want the job of sorting legitimate asylum seekers from those simply trying to work the system?
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:50 AM joemama is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
If illegals didn't come here and break the law, then there wouldn't be any illegals here breaking the law either

And do you seriously believe that?

The standard of living in Mexico is so low that being an unemployed illegal here is preferable to living in an aluminium shack down there.

But the companies provide incentive for illegals to come here and break the law . I'm not saying it will totally stop the flow, but it would drastically reduce it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:51 AM Coqui is offline  
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Would you want the job of sorting legitimate asylum seekers from those simply trying to work the system?

Sure. Not only does it aid in enforcing immigration laws, but it opens jobs up for more people as well.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:52 AM Coqui is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
Yes, but exclusively blaming the companies that hire them (read: wealthy white men) is ignorant.

No one's just blaming one side, but if you only focus on the aliens, they'll just be replaced by different aliens
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:53 AM Coqui is offline  
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Electrikfuzz050
 
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But the companies provide incentive for illegals to come here and break the law . I'm not saying it will totally stop the flow, but it would drastically reduce it.

No, the country as a whole does. Are the companies at fault? Sure, however saying that illegals only come over here to build houses and mow lawns is stupid.
Old 04-30-2010, 09:58 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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Some Hispanic Americans hope law deters illegal immigration

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Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- Sue Schwartz says she's been called a racist so many times she doesn't mind the label anymore. If wanting immigrants to enter the country legally, like her great-grandparents from Mexico, and obey the laws of the land makes her racist, then so be it, she says firmly.

"I'm getting to the point I wear it with pride," says Schwartz, a lifelong Arizonan who has warily watched the growth of the illegal immigrant population in the state over the course of her life.

About 500,000 unauthorized immigrants were believed to live in Arizona in 2008, and 11.9 million nationwide, up from 3.5 million nationwide in 1990, according to a Pew Hispanic Center report published in 2009.

This year, the tide is finally turning in her favor, she says, with the passage of SB 1070, aimed at cracking down on illegal immigration.

The new law requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally.

"I hope it makes a lot of them leave on their own, self-deportation. Hopefully that'll open up more jobs. There's a lot of people here who will do menial jobs -- maybe not pick lettuce, but these people aren't just picking lettuce any more," Schwartz

The new law also targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.

What will Arizona immigration law do?

Schwartz, a retired USPS worker, says undocumented workers are taking jobs from citizens like her teenage granddaughter, who hasn't been able to find a job since she began looking after she turned 15.

"She can't even work at the Hometown Buffet if she doesn't speak Spanish. How fair is that?" she said.

But Schwartz and some other Americans with Hispanic backgrounds who spoke with CNN say the problem with illegals isn't just the jobs they take. It's how they're overrunning border towns like Phoenix, turning them into "mini-Mexicos" with their trash-filled streets and loud music, according to Schwartz. <---I've seen plenty of this as well. So will anyone who lives near mexican neighborhoods.

Of equal concern to her friend, Martha Payan, is how she says illegal immigrants "fleece" government coffers by collecting welfare on multiple children, or vanish without a trace after an arrest or a hospital visit.

The two women, who became acquainted through various demonstrations in the metro Phoenix area, met Thursday to discuss their views outside the Maricopa County Municipal building, as more backlash against the controversial immigration law continued to flood the city.

Latin pop star Shakira arrived in town Thursday to discuss SB 1070 with Mayor Phil Gordon, who has vowed to fight the law. In the athletic corner, MLB team Chicago Cubs announced it would not play the Diamondbacks unless the bill is overturned. All this, the day after Mexico urged its citizens not to travel to Arizona, in a rare reversal of roles.

Sporting a white baseball cap that that reads, "100% American Citizen," Schwartz says she believes that SB 1070 came about because law enforcement in Phoenix was fed up over not being able to ask suspects about their immigration status.

Schwartz believes SB 1070 came about because law enforcement in Phoenix was fed up over not being able to ask suspects about their immigration status.

"Any time an American does something wrong or breaks the law they're going to pay the consequences. Whenever an illegal does something wrong they get a new ID and become a new person," she says. "I want the laws same for everybody here, not bent for them."

The 59-year-old mother of four adult children says her Mexican parents and grandparents taught her a respect for the law at an early age. Her grandmother, who lived in Juarez, Mexico, after being kicked out of the United States for smuggling drugs, encouraged her to get a good education and speak English, her second language, outside of the home.

"If I entered another country illegally I'd go to jail, yet they're demanding better treatment than their government would give us," she says.

Anna Gaines, a Mexican-born U.S. citizen, says she took up the fight against illegal immigration after becoming disillusioned by the attitudes of immigrant families that she witnessed as a teacher in the Paradise Valley School District in Paradise, Arizona.

"Many of these families were having one child after another just to earn a paycheck from the U.S. government and they didn't care about their children's education," says Gaines, the controversial founder of American Citizens United, a grass-roots organization known for its extreme views on immigration enforcement. "They didn't want to contribute, just take."


Gaines, who came to the United States as a nurse on a work visa during the Vietnam War and met her current husband, says she thinks immigrants have changed over the years.

"There used to be a level of dignity and self-respect. They were hard-working people who wanted to contribute to American society because it was better than where they came from," says Gaines, a petite woman in her 70s. "But our government has been giving them handouts for so long that now they expect them."


Gaines says SB 1070 mirrors federal law on fortifying the borders, allowing local officials to enforce immigration law in a manner that the federal government should have been doing all along.

"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country," she says.

Payan, originally from Puerto Rico, hopes the law will deter future illegal immigration.

"I hope it stops trespassers and lets people know the law is the law and you cross that border illegally, it's a crime," she says.

Payan has also been called "traidora" or traitor by neighbors in her primarily Hispanic neighborhood who know how she feels about illegal immigrants.


"They know how I feel. I don't hide my feeling," she says. "I've already had by apartment broken into and had my car hit by an illegal. What more do I have to lose?".
Old 04-30-2010, 10:22 AM topcat989 is offline  
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That certainly is what I'd expect from any US citizen wanting to defend it's right to not have illegals in their town.

Well spoken, well educated members of society who came seeking a better future only to see it potentially ruined by current illegals. These people will not get frontpage news because they hold a responsible viewpoint.

My wife(RN Labor/Delivery) sees the multiple children to just bring it welfare all the time at her job legal/illegal. Lately she has seen a rise in illegal though...particularly asian & hispanic.

There was one couple who said it exactly like this...

"We want to have 12 children so you don't have to pay taxes anymore."

Yes they were on welfare as well. I told her that is enough to call child services IMO. Not her call though.
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:45 AM Thermo1223 is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Originally Posted by Electrikfuzz050 View Post
No, the country as a whole does. Are the companies at fault? Sure, however saying that illegals only come over here to build houses and mow lawns is stupid.

But to have a place to live and to have the basic necessities, they need a job.
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:38 PM Coqui is offline  
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But the companies provide incentive for illegals to come here and break the law . I'm not saying it will totally stop the flow, but it would drastically reduce it.

A mayor in Mexico complained a few months ago because too many immigrants were coming back from Arizona, after it became harder to find jobs due to new laws and the recession.
Old 04-30-2010, 03:47 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I'm not a large company, I'm an independent contractor. Most of my work is for individual homeowners. I rarely work for general contractors because, you guessed it, they're using illegals. But here's how it works:

A homeowner wants some work done, they solicit bids to get the work done. I come in, with my legit status and paying taxes, cost I have to take into account when giving an estimate. Other tile contractors come in, but since they themselves are illegal or at the least uses illegals, they don't have to factor in the overhead and taxes that I do. They also don't have to factor in the standard of living I'm trying to provide for my family. Since many illegals are single men living together, sharing rent in a cheap place, they don't have the living expenses I do. They are deliberately choosing a lower standard of living, FOR HERE, because to them it is a high standard of compared to where they are from. The money they are able to send home goes a lot further then it does here.

All said and done, illegals undercut me by usually 50% on average. Guess what that means? I don't get the job. Where I used to be able to get (some) of the work because my work was quality, and (some) people are willing to pay for quality, even that "advantage" is getting diluted because so much poor quality is out there that it has become the de facto standard. I'm shocked and saddened nowadays by how many homeowners don't know the difference. All of the work they've seen is shitty so that becomes their benchmark. I've had homeowners smiling and saying "Didn't my tile guy do a nice job!" and I'm sitting there shaking my head.

You know how some folks have been outsourced because their jobs "went overseas" to cheap labor? Well for me and the hundreds of thousands others like me the cheap labor came here. And so I've been outsourced in my own country.

It still makes more sense to tackle the demand, not the supply, since the supply is endless. Don't you love capitalism?
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Old 04-30-2010, 04:29 PM matt00926 is offline  
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topcat989
 
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It still makes more sense to tackle the demand, not the supply, since the supply is endless. Don't you love capitalism?

It makes sense to tackle it from both ends. I fully support harsh fines and even jail sentences from businesses who hire illegals. But that won't help me. The individual homeowners who pay illegals in cash fly so far under the radar that enforcement on their end is just not practical. That's where cutting of ALL services except emergency medical care, and checking immigration status every time there's a law enforcement contact, aggressive deportation campaign, and a thoroughly updated, aggressively enforced border would all help measurable in reducing illegal immigration into the country as well as their presence here.
Old 04-30-2010, 07:22 PM topcat989 is offline  
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As a non-american, I find this debate hilariously funny.
It's as if laws which require LEO discretion to be enforced are suddenly racist, despite the fact that this is how most law enforcement happens anyway.
And as a European, I find the whole set of issues about carrying an ID rather funny too.
The way it is now, state and city law enforcement can't do anything about a criminals illegal immigration status..that was in the hands of federal agencies such as the Border Patrol, INS etc..but they are overwhelmed and can only handle a small percentage. As far as the ID thing....Americans take pride in the fact that we can move across the country and live anywhere we choose without "showing papers" at checkpoints and such. Of course even that is more of an ideal than a reality since when you move to any other state you must register your car there, get licensed to drive there..and pay an state income taxes, property taxes and such....but you aren't forced to always have a form of ID always on your person unless you drive a motor vehicle.
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:27 PM joemama is offline  
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