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coalesce
 
Just gonna say:
1) Its fucking retarded to make day labor illegal. Finding work is not allowed regardless of your resident status??!
2) The US has no official language.
3) Some people have no idea just how many people do not speak English Fluently
4) They also have no idea just how many of these people are here legally
5) I'd say a good chunk of English learners aren't from Mexico

Racial profiling is the standard but adding this racial bias into a written law is bad news.
Old 04-28-2010, 11:26 PM coalesce is offline  
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plainsong
 
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The only problem I can see with Arizona's legislation is that it had to be enacted because the federal government appears to be completely disinterested with actually enforcing the law. The Arizona legislation is drafted to mirror the federal legislation, only it gives state and local police the powers to enforce it as well. People seem to be upset as if this is some kind of brand new Draconian law that only now came into existence in the land of the free. It already exists people!

With regard to people suggesting the cops will generate "lawful contact" because they're secretly run by the KKK and want all the Messicans to leave, that's really going completely overboard with paranoia in my view. They still have checks and balances with which they can operate. For example, if they pull you over for speeding and you produce a license, the officer will never get away with saying he had any reasonable suspicion to call you on that. If you can't produce that, he will. If you can't produce ID and you look like you just came from Mexico, AND you were stopped by the police, than yes, they have reasonable suspicion. What they can't do is randomly stop Jose walking down the street to buy groceries.

Will this target Mexicans primarily? Well DUH! Arizona doesn't have a problem with illegal immigrants coming off of boats from China. Arizona doesn't have a problem with illegal immigration originating from the Middle East. Arizona's illegal immigration issues stem primarily from Mexico, so obviously that will draw most of the attention.

My next question is why are people so up in arms about Arizona MIRRORING THE FEDERAL ENFORCEMENT LEGISLATION? If ICE did it's fucking job, this law would never be drafted.

finally someone touched on it. its called lawful contact, which means its only valid if you have broken another crime like a traffic law or something like that. that cant just stop a person because they feel like it. if they did, and it goes to the judge and its found out the cop had no reason to stop and check them, it will get thrown out of court and the person (illegal or not) will be sent on their way and the officer will be reprimanded. a cop does that enough, he will get fired. one, the paper work and time thats wasted, the courts time thats wasted, and the public image nightmare for the PD.

nothing wrong with someone checking to make sure you belong here once you have been pulled over or stopped for breaking a law. oh, and who the hell in todays age that is old enough to do so doesnt carry their fucking ID with them? what are you, 7 or something? if you are legal age to drive you should always have a ID on you.
Old 04-29-2010, 04:48 AM plainsong is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
The only problem I can see with Arizona's legislation is that it had to be enacted because the federal government appears to be completely disinterested with actually enforcing the law. The Arizona legislation is drafted to mirror the federal legislation, only it gives state and local police the powers to enforce it as well. People seem to be upset as if this is some kind of brand new Draconian law that only now came into existence in the land of the free. It already exists people!

With regard to people suggesting the cops will generate "lawful contact" because they're secretly run by the KKK and want all the Messicans to leave, that's really going completely overboard with paranoia in my view. They still have checks and balances with which they can operate. For example, if they pull you over for speeding and you produce a license, the officer will never get away with saying he had any reasonable suspicion to call you on that. If you can't produce that, he will. If you can't produce ID and you look like you just came from Mexico, AND you were stopped by the police, than yes, they have reasonable suspicion. What they can't do is randomly stop Jose walking down the street to buy groceries.

Will this target Mexicans primarily? Well DUH! Arizona doesn't have a problem with illegal immigrants coming off of boats from China. Arizona doesn't have a problem with illegal immigration originating from the Middle East. Arizona's illegal immigration issues stem primarily from Mexico, so obviously that will draw most of the attention.

My next question is why are people so up in arms about Arizona MIRRORING THE FEDERAL ENFORCEMENT LEGISLATION? If ICE did it's fucking job, this law would never be drafted.


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Originally Posted by plainsong View Post
finally someone touched on it. its called lawful contact, which means its only valid if you have broken another crime like a traffic law or something like that. that cant just stop a person because they feel like it. if they did, and it goes to the judge and its found out the cop had no reason to stop and check them, it will get thrown out of court and the person (illegal or not) will be sent on their way and the officer will be reprimanded. a cop does that enough, he will get fired. one, the paper work and time thats wasted, the courts time thats wasted, and the public image nightmare for the PD.

nothing wrong with someone checking to make sure you belong here once you have been pulled over or stopped for breaking a law. oh, and who the hell in todays age that is old enough to do so doesnt carry their fucking ID with them? what are you, 7 or something? if you are legal age to drive you should always have a ID on you.

Actually, it has been brought up before. Lawful contact isn't necessarily defined. Lawful contact could be a cop just coming up to talk to you.
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:13 AM Coqui is offline  
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Originally Posted by coalesce View Post
Its fucking retarded to make day labor illegal. Finding work is not allowed regardless of your resident status??!

Except day labor is already illegal, as generally you're getting paid cash under the table.
Old 04-29-2010, 06:26 AM Electrikfuzz050 is offline  
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mohavewolfpup
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to those complaining about the bill being racist: either carry your supporting documents or get ready to leave the country.

If it wasn't hispanics, then it would be some species of yellow dog, or cockroaches, or black eyed grey aliens....

Racism is a politically correct invention that needs to leave this country asap also. Those who liken it to the civil rights struggle of the 1960's for blacks getting proper school access/water fountains/voting/etc are grossly stupid and have a ill formed argument.... The difference then and now was that they were legal, unlike the issue today...

Frankly, I hope other states (especially the illegal alien shelter cities/states) start passing their own laws and causing more rats to jump ship back to mexico. makes clean up easier to get the remaining stragglers out the more that leave...

In closing, *do not* punish the rest of legal america who took the time to become a citizen through proper channels or birth. If you are undergoing citizenship tests, still carry your documents so you have less issues. We are not to blame for the rest of your peers failing to go through proper immigration channels. Blame them, not us for protecting our countries borders.

Those who holler racism, unconstitutional and wave around "la raza" flags are the true racists and we frankly don't want you here. If you want to be taken seriously, you wait your turn like the rest... There is no excuse for not applying for citizen ship. I'm sure the job you stole from a real citizen could have helped you set aside a few dollars each week to send in for citizenship papers, rather then 100% back to mexico...

/thread
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:26 AM mohavewolfpup is offline  
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Ok I looked this up. How often do all of you carry around your birth certificate or your SSN card? Because now all Latinos in Arizona will have to carry one of those two documents (assuming they're US citizens and not just legally here on a Visa)
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:03 AM Coqui is offline  
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topcat989
 
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Permits and visas are a little larger than a card

you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel on asinine excuses
Old 04-29-2010, 08:12 AM topcat989 is offline  
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Coqui
 
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you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel on asinine excuses

Scraping at the barrel? Fine let's put it in plain English.

I don't like the fact that because someone's Hispanic living in Arizona, they are now required to carry two forms of ID with them at all times. Even if they are walking to the corner store to buy some ice cream with cash.

I don't like that the obvious direction for this is against Latinos.

You guys keep mentioning that this is fine because they are the highest proportion of immigrants.....should police only interest themselves in auto thefts that are only Hondas or Toyotas?
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:18 AM Coqui is offline  
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A county in Virginia already tried this a while back and it pretty much bankrupted the entire county. Most small businesses operate with a 5% or less profit margin. When 10-15% of the residents of a community leave those businesses are fucked. When the people go and the businesses go, then the property value goes and so does the tax base.

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
.

You do realize this completely "unbiased" documentary is by Annabel Park, the founder of the Coffee Party movement? And was also a former campaign manager of Obama?

Quote:
She co-directed and produced the documentary, 9500 Liberty, about the battle over the "Immigration Resolution" law in Virginia. She is a founder and defacto-coordinator of Coffee Party USA.[4][5][6] She has volunteered for James Webb's 2006 US Senate campaign and for Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign
Yeah. I'm sure she's not biased or anything.
Old 04-29-2010, 08:25 AM topcat989 is offline  
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Straw Man
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You do realize this completely "unbiased" documentary is by Annabel Park, the founder of the Coffee Party movement? And was also a former campaign manager of Obama?



Yeah. I'm sure she's not biased or anything.

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Originally Posted by topcat989 View Post
ah, the usual "I hate your source so it can't be true!" bit.



what?
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:33 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Coqui
 
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what?

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Old 04-29-2010, 08:36 AM Coqui is offline  
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topcat989
 
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what?

I didn't say it wasn't true, I said she has obvious biases, so I won't be taking that documentary at face value. You guys wouldn't take a Lou Dobbs documentary on illegal immigration at face value either........

anyways, here's my documentary on illegal immigration. If you say I can't question the motivation and bias of yours, then you can't question mine

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.
Old 04-29-2010, 08:41 AM topcat989 is offline  
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#102  

Straw Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat989 View Post
I didn't say it wasn't true, I said she has obvious biases, so I won't be taking that documentary at face value. You guys wouldn't take a Lou Dobbs documentary on illegal immigration at face value either........

anyways, here's my documentary on illegal immigration. If you say I can't question the motivation and bias of yours, then you can't question mine

+ YouTube Video
ERROR: If you can see this, then YouTube is down or you don't have Flash installed.

I really didn't have a problem with the post, you're the one that cried about biased commentary, and only did it because it didn't fit your opinion
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:43 AM Straw Man is offline  
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Actually, it has been brought up before. Lawful contact isn't necessarily defined. Lawful contact could be a cop just coming up to talk to you.

That's the only problem I have with the bill. "Lawful Contact" needs to be explicitly defined as "Contact by a law enforcement individual with a citizen when said citizen has been accused, with reasonable suspicion by the law enforcement individual, of a crime having nothing to do with immigration status."

As the law stands, "Lawful Contact" is not defined, and thus can mean any type of "contact" that's "within the law." It will take a court case to define "Lawful Contact" unless the bill is amended.

Anyone who has a problem with the bill beyond that aspect...well, that's another story.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:30 AM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Actually, it has been brought up before. Lawful contact isn't necessarily defined. Lawful contact could be a cop just coming up to talk to you.

So you're suggesting there's a massive police conspiracy against Hispanics, and you're concerned that they're just going to use this as an excuse to interrupt people's day and detain them simply to "get back at them" for being Hispanic? That's not realistic. If enough people are getting stopped without cause just to give the cops an excuse for "legal contact", than there's going to be lawsuits flying all over the place. I understand that you're concerned about racial profiling because Arizona's illegal immigration issues are all coming from the same demographic, but I honestly don't see why it would be in an officer's interest to generate "legal contact" for no good reason. It's not as if the officer is going to politely say "hello" to you and then be "oh by the way, now that I've acknowledged your precense, let's see some ID you dirty Messican!".

You're also not addressing the fact that the Arizona law is supposed to be designed to basically extend federal powers to Arizona police. If the feds weren't doing this right now, why will the Arizona cops all of a sudden decide it's open season on Mexicans?
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:57 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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