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Mr. Greg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
So you're suggesting there's a massive police conspiracy against Hispanics, and you're concerned that they're just going to use this as an excuse to interrupt people's day and detain them simply to "get back at them" for being Hispanic? That's not realistic. If enough people are getting stopped without cause just to give the cops an excuse for "legal contact", than there's going to be lawsuits flying all over the place. I understand that you're concerned about racial profiling because Arizona's illegal immigration issues are all coming from the same demographic, but I honestly don't see why it would be in an officer's interest to generate "legal contact" for no good reason. It's not as if the officer is going to politely say "hello" to you and then be "oh by the way, now that I've acknowledged your precense, let's see some ID you dirty Messican!".

I know you didn't ask me, but I don't think it's a massive police conspiracy, I think it's a non-defined, open for interpretation term in an otherwise great bill.

[edit for your edit] Is there a federal law that also uses "legal contact" without defining the term?
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:59 AM Mr. Greg is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Ok I looked this up. How often do all of you carry around your birth certificate or your SSN card? Because now all Latinos in Arizona will have to carry one of those two documents (assuming they're US citizens and not just legally here on a Visa)

I have mine in my wallet, and I have my wallet with me at all times, so pretty well constantly. If an officer wants to see it, I show it to him.

As for immigrants, they're required by US law to carry documentation with them as proof of citizenship to my knowledge. I understand your concern that US citizens, who don't have to, might get accosted now, but I have two questions for you regarding that. 1) Do you think Arizona cops are all racist just itching for an excuse to deport Mexican descendent US citizens? 2) Do you know anyone older than 15 who doesn't, at the very least, carry their driver's license with them? Or anything else in their wallets they have with them pretty well all the time?
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:02 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
I don't like that the obvious direction for this is against Latinos.

You guys keep mentioning that this is fine because they are the highest proportion of immigrants.....should police only interest themselves in auto thefts that are only Hondas or Toyotas?

That's a silly analogy. Once Arizona starts having an issue with illegal immigrants from China or Europe, then that will be valid. Until then, really man, are you serious?
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:03 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
I know you didn't ask me, but I don't think it's a massive police conspiracy, I think it's a non-defined, open for interpretation term in an otherwise great bill.

[edit for your edit] Is there a federal law that also uses "legal contact" without defining the term?

Not exactly undefined. The interpretation of the bill from what I've read and media interviews with Arizona police is that the police wont be able to simply walk up to someone, say "yo, what up?", and then engage in a background check. From what I've seen, "legal contact" in this bill would mean they would have to be involved in the commission of some sort of illegal activity against the state. For example, if you get pulled over for speeding, the police can legally check you under this bill. If you walk out your front door to buy an ice cream cone from a passing ice cream truck, the police can't legally stop you for that because you're not being involved in the commission of a crime, and you can sue them for that if they do. A police officer walking past you and saying hi does not constitute lawful contact, but one stopping you because you have a broken tailight will because an initial offence has been committed that sparked the need for the officer to speak with you. With that in mind, I don't agree with the big conspiracy theory that Arizona police are out to nail some Mexicans because they're white KKK supremecists itching for an excuse to kick Jose's ass back south of the border.

With regard to the federal law, my understanding of this latest legislation from Arizona is that it's supposed to basically extend federal powers to the Arizona police, so it mirrors federal anti-illegal immigration legislation. To me, that makes me question why people are so up in arms about what, in reality, is nothing new. It also makes me question Obama's opposition considering federal agencies are supposed to be doing this to begin with. Sounds like vote pandering.
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Last edited by Tom Kazansky; 04-29-2010 at 10:15 AM..
Old 04-29-2010, 10:07 AM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel on asinine excuses

Americans aren't required to carry ID at all, much less a birth certificate.

Except in Arizona if you resemble an illegal immigrant read: Hispanics.

Do we see the problem here yet?
Old 04-29-2010, 10:12 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
With regard to the federal law, my understanding of this latest legislation from Arizona is that it's supposed to basically extend federal powers to the Arizona police, so it mirrors federal anti-illegal immigration legislation. To me, that makes me question why people are so up in arms about what, in reality, is nothing new. It also makes me question Obama's opposition considering federal agencies are supposed to be doing this to begin with. Sounds like vote pandering.

All the conservative people who jack off to "State's Rights" should be upset about this. The federal government has explicit power over immigration, not the states. You can't have it both ways.
Old 04-29-2010, 10:15 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Except day labor is already illegal, as generally you're getting paid cash under the table.

No, not reporting wages and not paying taxes is illegal. Not the same thing as day labor.
Old 04-29-2010, 10:35 AM coalesce is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Americans aren't required to carry ID at all, much less a birth certificate.

Except in Arizona if you resemble an illegal immigrant read: Hispanics.

Do we see the problem here yet?

This isn't entirely true.
There was a supreme court case a while back which basically said that people can be required to identify themselves.
AFAIK it didn't say "carry ID" but it's open-ended.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:56 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
All the conservative people who jack off to "State's Rights" should be upset about this. The federal government has explicit power over immigration, not the states. You can't have it both ways.

On the contrary; the states are asserting their right to enforce federal laws.

I suspect this will hit the courts (if it hasn't already?)
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:04 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
What if this person does all this but is Puerto Rican?

Then he should be charged with impersonating a wetback.

It's a poorly constructed law. probably wont hold up in state supreme court.


a) for a motor vehicle occupant to attempt to hire or hire and pick up passengers for work at a different location;

b) for a person to enter the motor vehicle in order to be hired by a motor vehicle occupant and to be transported to work at a different location.


That part is pretty bad. And having to show papers is pretty bad.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Americans aren't required to carry ID at all, much less a birth certificate.

Except in Arizona if you resemble an illegal immigrant read: Hispanics.

Do we see the problem here yet?

Yes, I see the problem. 10 million wetbacks since the last amnesty with no federal response is causing states to try to do something about the problem. And since they are in the midst of the shit, they will tend to go overboard a bit.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:20 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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On the contrary; the states are asserting their right to enforce federal laws.

I suspect this will hit the courts (if it hasn't already?)

The states have no right to enforce federal laws according to the Constitution. Quite the opposite in fact. If you care about the constitutional balance of powers, this should bother you. If you're just a "Zomg federal government bad" type, you should just fuck right off.
Old 04-29-2010, 11:33 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
That's a silly analogy. Once Arizona starts having an issue with illegal immigrants from China or Europe, then that will be valid. Until then, really man, are you serious?

HOw is it silly? Your delusional to think that Mexicans are the only illegals in Arizona. But Hondas, like Mexicans, are the highest proportion out there...so since the intent is to only focus on Latinos, Police should intend to only focus on Honda auto thefts
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:41 AM Coqui is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Greg View Post
That's the only problem I have with the bill. "Lawful Contact" needs to be explicitly defined as "Contact by a law enforcement individual with a citizen when said citizen has been accused, with reasonable suspicion by the law enforcement individual, of a crime having nothing to do with immigration status."

As the law stands, "Lawful Contact" is not defined, and thus can mean any type of "contact" that's "within the law." It will take a court case to define "Lawful Contact" unless the bill is amended.

Anyone who has a problem with the bill beyond that aspect...well, that's another story.

Once they define it as you mentioned, I will shut up about this.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:42 AM Coqui is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
I have mine in my wallet, and I have my wallet with me at all times, so pretty well constantly. If an officer wants to see it, I show it to him.

As for immigrants, they're required by US law to carry documentation with them as proof of citizenship to my knowledge. I understand your concern that US citizens, who don't have to, might get accosted now, but I have two questions for you regarding that. 1) Do you think Arizona cops are all racist just itching for an excuse to deport Mexican descendent US citizens? 2) Do you know anyone older than 15 who doesn't, at the very least, carry their driver's license with them? Or anything else in their wallets they have with them pretty well all the time?

You also know that they highly reccomend you do not carry your SSN around with you? (straight off of Social Security's website)

1.) Not all.....but it only takes one to make my life a living hell about it, and they now have a law to back up their prejudices (the ones that are)
2.) Driver's license is not enough proof. Not all states require proof of legal alien status to obtain a driver's license. That's why they'll have to carry a birht certificate or SSN card with them as well
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:45 AM Coqui is offline  
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Coqui
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
So you're suggesting there's a massive police conspiracy against Hispanics, and you're concerned that they're just going to use this as an excuse to interrupt people's day and detain them simply to "get back at them" for being Hispanic? That's not realistic. If enough people are getting stopped without cause just to give the cops an excuse for "legal contact", than there's going to be lawsuits flying all over the place. I understand that you're concerned about racial profiling because Arizona's illegal immigration issues are all coming from the same demographic, but I honestly don't see why it would be in an officer's interest to generate "legal contact" for no good reason. It's not as if the officer is going to politely say "hello" to you and then be "oh by the way, now that I've acknowledged your precense, let's see some ID you dirty Messican!".

You're also not addressing the fact that the Arizona law is supposed to be designed to basically extend federal powers to Arizona police. If the feds weren't doing this right now, why will the Arizona cops all of a sudden decide it's open season on Mexicans?

It's going to be in the moniroty of police, but it will happen, I guarantee it.

And I've already mentioned, my only issue with this bill is the possibilty of random stopping just because a person "looks" like an illegal. As I mentioned, if they word it so that a cop has to have a different reason to stop someone, then I won't complain.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:47 AM Coqui is offline  
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