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Coqui
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Not exactly undefined. The interpretation of the bill from what I've read and media interviews with Arizona police is that the police wont be able to simply walk up to someone, say "yo, what up?", and then engage in a background check. From what I've seen, "legal contact" in this bill would mean they would have to be involved in the commission of some sort of illegal activity against the state. For example, if you get pulled over for speeding, the police can legally check you under this bill. If you walk out your front door to buy an ice cream cone from a passing ice cream truck, the police can't legally stop you for that because you're not being involved in the commission of a crime, and you can sue them for that if they do. A police officer walking past you and saying hi does not constitute lawful contact, but one stopping you because you have a broken tailight will because an initial offence has been committed that sparked the need for the officer to speak with you. With that in mind, I don't agree with the big conspiracy theory that Arizona police are out to nail some Mexicans because they're white KKK supremecists itching for an excuse to kick Jose's ass back south of the border.

With regard to the federal law, my understanding of this latest legislation from Arizona is that it's supposed to basically extend federal powers to the Arizona police, so it mirrors federal anti-illegal immigration legislation. To me, that makes me question why people are so up in arms about what, in reality, is nothing new. It also makes me question Obama's opposition considering federal agencies are supposed to be doing this to begin with. Sounds like vote pandering.

They explicitly define other parts of the bill with a glossary of terms prior to that section....why don't they do that with this term?
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:50 PM Coqui is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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All the conservative people who jack off to "State's Rights" should be upset about this. The federal government has explicit power over immigration, not the states. You can't have it both ways.

How so?
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:56 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
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Americans aren't required to carry ID at all, much less a birth certificate.

Except in Arizona if you resemble an illegal immigrant read: Hispanics.

Do we see the problem here yet?

But the point of the law is they can't just walk up to you and demand ID. You have to be involved in a legal issue before the cops can do that, according to what I've seen. If that's the case, what's the issue?
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:57 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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HOw is it silly? Your delusional to think that Mexicans are the only illegals in Arizona. But Hondas, like Mexicans, are the highest proportion out there...so since the intent is to only focus on Latinos, Police should intend to only focus on Honda auto thefts

Arizona is a border state with a country known for having a large number of illegal immigrants in exodus. If you are honestly going to sit here and say the illegal immigration population in Arizona is anything less than like 95% than you have to be on glue.

And no, your analogy is silly. Police have not been ordered with this new law to focus on a single ethnic group. They're obviously going to make the assumption that Latinos will be the focus because the illegal immigrant population in Arizona is, by vast majority, Latino, but there is nothing in the law that says they will be the only target. If you're going to respond by saying they will make the assumption because most are Latino, than you've weakened your own suggestion that I'm delusional. If I'm so delusional, why are you so concerned about singling out Latinos? Because there's a lot of German illegals in Arizona, too?
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:03 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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You also know that they highly reccomend you do not carry your SSN around with you? (straight off of Social Security's website)

1.) Not all.....but it only takes one to make my life a living hell about it, and they now have a law to back up their prejudices (the ones that are)
2.) Driver's license is not enough proof. Not all states require proof of legal alien status to obtain a driver's license. That's why they'll have to carry a birht certificate or SSN card with them as well

I know my SSN by heart so I don't have to carry my card. I do carry my birth certificate. SSN or not, if someone got a hold of my wallet, with my driver's license, health card, and birth certificate, they wont need my SSN to steal my identity. Identity theft is not that difficult, unfortunately.

1) How does it make your life a living hell? Are you thinking you'll be accosted on a daily basis while not being in the commission of illegal activities? I don't consider that particularly likely.

2) Any immigrant in the United States has to have documentation proving they're legal in the first place. If you're a natural citizen of the United States, your license will be sufficient to not raise any red flags when the officers process it, likely using their computer in their cruiser meaning you'll be on your way in a few minutes without requiring them to detain you, again, assuming they're just going to stop you for buying ice cream, which is not going to happen.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:07 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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I know my SSN by heart so I don't have to carry my card. I do carry my birth certificate. SSN or not, if someone got a hold of my wallet, with my driver's license, health card, and birth certificate, they wont need my SSN to steal my identity. Identity theft is not that difficult, unfortunately.

1) How does it make your life a living hell? Are you thinking you'll be accosted on a daily basis while not being in the commission of illegal activities? I don't consider that particularly likely.

2) Any immigrant in the United States has to have documentation proving they're legal in the first place. If you're a natural citizen of the United States, your license will be sufficient to not raise any red flags when the officers process it, likely using their computer in their cruiser meaning you'll be on your way in a few minutes without requiring them to detain you, again, assuming they're just going to stop you for buying ice cream, which is not going to happen.
You carry your birth certificate? As in a 6 by 9 giantass piece of paper? I call troll.
Old 04-29-2010, 03:08 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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It's going to be in the moniroty of police, but it will happen, I guarantee it.

Oh I'm not denying it, but if they can't produce proof you were involved in illegal activities than I can guarantee you their will be lawsuits. The police are not 100% above the law, and they do have checks and balances they have to operate within. If they stop you on the street buying ice cream, they're going to have a hard time legally justifying that was necessary.

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And I've already mentioned, my only issue with this bill is the possibilty of random stopping just because a person "looks" like an illegal. As I mentioned, if they word it so that a cop has to have a different reason to stop someone, then I won't complain.

And to a point it's a legitimate concern, I'm not arguing that. My point is that I think a lot of those opposing the bill are the ones speculating about the definition of "lawful contact" more than the police actually are, as is often the case. I highly doubt this will result in what the detractors are suggesting on any appreciable scale.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:11 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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They explicitly define other parts of the bill with a glossary of terms prior to that section....why don't they do that with this term?

I can't answer that because I havn't read the entire bill yet.

Interestingly enough, I guarantee you the lawmakers complaining about it havn't either, because congressmen often don't.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:11 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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You carry your birth certificate? As in a 6 by 9 giantass piece of paper? I call troll.

No you can't. Birth certificates for the province of Ontario are about the same size as your driver's license. It's in my wallet, unfolded, and you'd never know it was there unless you went through it.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:13 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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I have an open question to all Americans on this board. What gives with people not wanting any enforcement of your country's immigration laws? It seems people almost WANT people there illegally, or is that just a ruse so they can convince us they're the epitome of not being racist? I don't understand.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:15 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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I have an open question to all Americans on this board. What gives with people not wanting any enforcement of your country's immigration laws? It seems people almost WANT people there illegally, or is that just a ruse so they can convince us they're the epitome of not being racist? I don't understand.

Pretty much........


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Chanting "Illinois is not Arizona," local activists escalated their push for immigration reform Tuesday by trying to block the deportation of illegal immigrants from a federal detention center in suburban Broadview, the first of what they vowed would be a campaign of civil disobedience.
Old 04-29-2010, 03:32 PM topcat989 is offline  
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Actually, it has been brought up before. Lawful contact isn't necessarily defined. Lawful contact could be a cop just coming up to talk to you.

lawful contact is not just a cop coming up to talk to you. unless he/she has a reason to ask for your ID (like the fact that you have already broken a law) the cop cant just demand you to show your ID and check it for no reason. if they did do that when you went to court it would be thrown out and you would be sent on your way. its basically the same as finding the murder weapon without obtaining proper court documents to allow you to search a residence. sure, they may arrest you, but when you go before the court, it will get thrown out regardless if its plain as day that you had the murder weapon. same thing as info that is taken from you if you havent been read your rights. its thrown out of court. its a check and balance system. and yes, we all know cops overstep the line sometimes, but thats why we have a court system to fight those kind of things.

you let a cop just start pulling people over for no reason, or walk up to someone and demand their ID, and see how long he lasts on the force. the backlash against the department and his boss would be tremendous, not to mention costly when civil suits get brought against the department.

i feel for the people that are here just to try and make a better life for them and their family, regardless if they are hispanic, asian, african, canadian, or whatever. but you have laws that are supposed to be followed. if you dont like the law change them. but until then the law needs to be followed and enforced. and where i am right now, most of the hispanics that are in my area are illegal. not my fault that most of the blacks or whites or asians arent. screw all that racial profiling talk. if the majority of a group are causing the problems or breaking the law it just makes sense to look for those type of people.
Old 04-29-2010, 03:54 PM plainsong is offline  
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The states have no right to enforce federal laws according to the Constitution. Quite the opposite in fact. If you care about the constitutional balance of powers, this should bother you. If you're just a "Zomg federal government bad" type, you should just fuck right off.

The state passed a law empowering their executive branch to commit action on those falling under some federal designation.

It's akin to states giving treatment to congressional medal of honor holders.
The title is conferred by the federal government but there's no law prohibiting the states from granting recipients privileges like special license plates.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:11 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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But the point of the law is they can't just walk up to you and demand ID. You have to be involved in a legal issue before the cops can do that, according to what I've seen. If that's the case, what's the issue?

The problem from my understanding is that this question is far from settled.

There's also the federalism issue, which will be used when someone sues and this hits the courts.
Old 04-29-2010, 04:25 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I have an open question to all Americans on this board. What gives with people not wanting any enforcement of your country's immigration laws? It seems people almost WANT people there illegally, or is that just a ruse so they can convince us they're the epitome of not being racist? I don't understand.

Basically everyone in power doesn't want the immigration laws to be enforced, that's why they aren't currently. Conservatives are in bed with business interests that want cheap labor, liberals want everyone to be able to come here and improve their lives.

I think we need a total revamping of our immigration policy, but starting a crusade against Hispanics is not something we should engage in (and this law verges dangerously close to that).
Old 04-29-2010, 04:28 PM Gibonius is offline  
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