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SemperFly
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
THIS.

the christian BS is a real problem in the military, some of the guys say they are doing "god's work" in iraq/afghanistan.

oh it goes far beyond that

I know more than a couple people in leadership positions that genuinely believe we should be supporting israel and fighting in the middle east because both are key to bringing about the "end days"

fortunately people that crazy seem to be few and far between
Old 05-29-2010, 08:28 PM SemperFly is offline  
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yea, but they exist, and 18-20 year olds are easily influenced, especially when they're involved with a legitimate nationalistic organization to start with. that's why rome feared their own legions.

look at timothy mcveigh, perfect example.
Old 05-29-2010, 10:57 PM Xayd is offline  
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MC
 
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If it worked for blacks, it'll work for gays.

When were blacks ever told to keep that fact under wraps ? I don't understand what you're saying.

I liken it more to not being able to proclaim you're a racist, or a pedophile. People find homosexuality to be a hot button issue. They were asked to keep it under wraps, that's all. Nobody was asked to lie about it.
Old 05-30-2010, 01:50 PM MC is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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When were blacks ever told to keep that fact under wraps ? I don't understand what you're saying.

I liken it more to not being able to proclaim you're a racist, or a pedophile. People find homosexuality to be a hot button issue. They were asked to keep it under wraps, that's all. Nobody was asked to lie about it.

Yes they were. As idealistic as it is to say "no one should be talking about relationship stuff at work" it's simply not true. Monday morning there will be at least one conversation about who fucked a fat chick over the weekend.

And keeping it under wraps prevents them from receiving the same benefits and considerations as others doing the exact same job. It also prevents them from living their social lives during off duty hours.
Old 05-30-2010, 03:58 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Originally Posted by MC View Post
When were blacks ever told to keep that fact under wraps ? I don't understand what you're saying.

I liken it more to not being able to proclaim you're a racist, or a pedophile. People find homosexuality to be a hot button issue. They were asked to keep it under wraps, that's all. Nobody was asked to lie about it.

Keeping it under wraps would mean they either have to lie and lead a secret life, or be celebate and lonely, which isn't being asked of their straight counterparts; so yes, they were being asked to lie.

People seem to think DADT meant they couldn't go around in shiny pink hot pants and a boa with a sign proclaiming they'll suck dick for dollars. Like Fly said, it could be something as innocent as going to the commisary with their significant other.

Don't Ask Don't Tell doesn't exactly mean "we won't ask, and don't you tell us," it means "we won't ask, but if anyone else sees you doing anything gay and narcs you out, you're toast." It's not like they're going around advertising their gay shenanigans (though, considering the lockerroom talk that goes on, I don't see how it's any different except that it doesn't fit into heteronormative standards and therefore is omg icky.) Simply by nature of BEING in a gay relationship, no matter how low-key it is, they're at risk.
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:30 AM augusttremulous is offline  
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The same risk would have applied to a white serviceman who married a black lady, or vice versa back in the day i bet though.
Old 05-31-2010, 09:34 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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Straw Man
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Perhaps your edit was right, there's an internal culture that needs to be sustained.


I too, find it much more important to upkeep a bigoted atmosphere, and I also approve of pleasing bigots instead of something as rudimentary as accepting the sexuality of people who serve in a place where there is no room for sexuality.


but omg they might get it on during a war in the trenches, think of the morals for heavens sake
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Old 05-31-2010, 09:46 AM Straw Man is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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Originally Posted by augusttremulous View Post
(though, considering the lockerroom talk that goes on, I don't see how it's any different except that it doesn't fit into heteronormative standards and therefore is omg icky.)


Old 05-31-2010, 10:22 AM SemperFly is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Perhaps your edit was right, there's an internal culture that needs to be sustained.


I too, find it much more important to upkeep a bigoted atmosphere, and I also approve of pleasing bigots instead of something as rudimentary as accepting the sexuality of people who serve in a place where there is no room for sexuality.


but omg they might get it on during a war in the trenches, think of the morals for heavens sake
it's not really about morals or worrying about gays thinking more about sucking dick than fighting the enemy...but I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to someone who lives in a country where the military is just there "so we can say we have one" and really wouldn't be effective for offense or defense if they had to stand alone. I'm not in the military and never have been, and don't really care if the fighting forces go 100% gay as long as they're still effective at doing their jobs. I'm just not sure that it's possible to have openly gay people in the U.S. military without changing much more than just a policy on paper...
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:36 AM joemama is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama View Post
it's not really about morals or worrying about gays thinking more about sucking dick than fighting the enemy...but I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain it to someone who lives in a country where the military is just there "so we can say we have one" and really wouldn't be effective for offense or defense if they had to stand alone. I'm not in the military and never have been, and don't really care if the fighting forces go 100% gay as long as they're still effective at doing their jobs. I'm just not sure that it's possible to have openly gay people in the U.S. military without changing much more than just a policy on paper...

someone doesn't know what the winter war was, but then again you're american and thus very ignorant, so you're excused. Not that it actually had anything to do with the discussion, but since you like making a complete and utter ass of yourself, there you go. At least your mighty army doesn't have any fags in it (or perhaps there are some but they're awfully silent) when they lose campaigns overseas.

I'm expecting you to make an argument on jim crow laws telling us how black people shouldn't be drinking from them white water fountains, because changing that is much more than just a policy on paper and we really REALLY can't have anyone being disturbed over very basic things civilized people should have. most are happy with the status quo so it must be right, and it's just so much more than a policy on paper.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:55 AM Straw Man is offline  
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I'm just not sure that it's possible to have openly gay people in the U.S. military without changing much more than just a policy on paper...

I know that seems like a valid concern, but it basically boils down to circular logic: America isn't ready to have gays openly serve in the military because America isn't read to have gays openly serve in the military. But then that asks the question, how much longer? Five years? Ten? There's no distinct timeline for social acceptance. Eventually you have to put that change in the law's hands to get that kind of social justice instead of hoping society will throw them a bone someday.

And if you mean some other change, like segregated barracks or something, then again I disagree. Gays have to follow the same rules with relationships as anyone else on the base. They fuck up, they get kicked out.

Last edited by Frenetic; 05-31-2010 at 12:18 PM.. Reason: Possible misunderstanding
Old 05-31-2010, 12:17 PM Frenetic is offline  
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joemama
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someone doesn't know what the winter war was, but then again you're american and thus very ignorant, so you're excused. Not that it actually had anything to do with the discussion, but since you like making a complete and utter ass of yourself, there you go. At least your mighty army doesn't have any fags in it (or perhaps there are some but they're awfully silent) when they lose campaigns overseas.

I'm expecting you to make an argument on jim crow laws telling us how black people shouldn't be drinking from them white water fountains, because changing that is much more than just a policy on paper and we really REALLY can't have anyone being disturbed over very basic things civilized people should have. most are happy with the status quo so it must be right, and it's just so much more than a policy on paper.
See..this is why I didn't bother trying to explain it. Do you really think that the Finnish military of today (without NATO aid) could fend off the Russians if they came knocking with everything they have? Anyway, you missed the whole point...I have no problem with gays, blacks, Muslim, Hindu, Krishna etc.. or even people of Finnish descent in the U.S. military as long as they are effective at doing their job. Btw..there are some gays in the military who are also wary of lifting "don't ask don't tell", and all I'm saying is that it could have a more negative effect than we think. Of course, on teh other hand it may not be any big deal and business as usual..that's why I made this thread to ask people their thoughts.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:20 PM joemama is offline  
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joemama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenetic View Post
I know that seems like a valid concern, but it basically boils down to circular logic: America isn't ready to have gays openly serve in the military because America isn't read to have gays openly serve in the military. But then that asks the question, how much longer? Five years? Ten? There's no distinct timeline for social acceptance. Eventually you have to put that change in the law's hands to get that kind of social justice instead of hoping society will throw them a bone someday.

And if you mean some other change, like segregated barracks or something, then again I disagree. Gays have to follow the same rules with relationships as anyone else on the base. They fuck up, they get kicked out.
I'm just thinking that the timing may be bad for this...should have done it back in the late 70's-80's when we didn't have thousands of troops actively engaged on foreign soil. Are they really going to have sensitivity training classes in some remote outpost in bumfuck Afghanistan if the policy is suddenly lifted? I don't think that just because the policy is repealed every gay in the military will gather for a pride parade, and every straight soldier will immediately segregate and shun the gays....but then again I'm not in the military and don't fully understand the internal culture.
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Old 05-31-2010, 12:28 PM joemama is offline  
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SemperFly
 
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I'm just not sure that it's possible to have openly gay people in the U.S. military without changing much more than just a policy on paper...

If this is the separate barracks and showers argument, the no. Political correctness, sensitivity training and mothers of america aside, the military is capable of handling gays in the barracks without a massive rash of sexual harassment cases. Idiots seem to think that just because a guy is gay that he'll be unable to control his urge to rape every fit male in the general area.

As for anything else that would have to change the only major obstacle is the people themselves who won't let go of their intolerance of people who are different. The one and only logistical question is dependency status but it's mostly a non-issue until more states start accepting gay marriage.
Old 05-31-2010, 12:39 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Quote:
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See..this is why I didn't bother trying to explain it. Do you really think that the Finnish military of today (without NATO aid) could fend off the Russians if they came knocking with everything they have?
You may ponder this, and reply with an essay about it if you wish. In the meantime, let us enjoy Vietnam 2.0 and Vietnam 3.0

I'm a betting man, but seems like there's no odds for success. You were saying?
Quote:
Anyway, you missed the whole point...I have no problem with gays, blacks, Muslim, Hindu, Krishna etc.. or even people of Finnish descent in the U.S. military as long as they are effective at doing their job. Btw..there are some gays in the military who are also wary of lifting "don't ask don't tell", and all I'm saying is that it could have a more negative effect than we think. Of course, on teh other hand it may not be any big deal and business as usual..that's why I made this thread to ask people their thoughts.
I would also like to add that democrats should be removed from the military. Unless a "don't ask, don't tell" is adopted in regards to party line, someone might state they vote repuglican or dummycrat, and this might offend some people.
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Old 05-31-2010, 02:35 PM Straw Man is offline  
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