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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patriotic Eagle View Post
Marijuana was made illegal in the US specifically to target Mexicans and provide an excuse for deporting/imprisoning them and did the same for the Black community once it became more popular there.



I'm talking about TODAY. The US government, with a black head of state, is not pushing the drug war to imprison more black people.
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Last edited by Tom Kazansky; 06-26-2010 at 07:26 PM..
Old 06-26-2010, 07:10 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post

It's not necessarily about liberalism.

Except:

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The Progressive is a monthly leftwing magazine
Calling your magazine "progressive" does not mean your opinions represent positive social change.

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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post

Fair enough, but they're not necessarily equal even by name, not to mention political definitions are often skewed.
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Last edited by Tom Kazansky; 06-26-2010 at 07:20 PM..
Old 06-26-2010, 07:12 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
actually, that is pretty much the entire point of the drug war. from it's inception it was used in the united states as a population control for minorities and so called undesirable groups. In the 60/70s it was briefly re-tasked to marginalize hippies and anti-war protesters but ever since then it has continued to be used to marginalize and disenfranchise mostly inner city minorities.

Remember that famous "God Damn America" quote by that reverend wright fellow? Well the "god damn america" line was the culmination of a rant against the historical plight of black people and other minorities in america and the drug war and the damage it has done to inner cities and minority communities in our nation. No one bothered to pay any attention to that part though.

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But today, narcotics are controlled under an international law that the United States is signatory to. Marijuana is a subset of that.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:13 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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Gabbo
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
So basically you should change things that really don't need changing just to create the illusion that you're "moving forward"? You can never have an issue where things are fine the way they are?

So let me ask you something, most leftist I know tend to favour more government involvement in the economy. Government involvement is inherently inefficient, and countries with extensive government involvement have been shown to be less successful than those who favour the free market. Currently, Western powers are free market economies. Should we change this simply because keeping the "status quo" would not be "progressive"?
Who is to say things are perfectly good as they are? And no thing will never remain perfectly static, issues change with time. I don't think Roe vs Wade should be changed, but it was at one time a very progressive piece of legislation. Should it never have come into being because at the time people were perfectly happy without it? Of course it would really help to know whether you're arguing social or economic issues here.

No country is totally 'free-market' oriented, ever. I would say the Scandinavian countries and even to an extent, Germany would be good examples of countries with government intervention that are doing alright by themselves. Given its economic strength, China. Economies with no intervention lead to things like the recession we just experienced, A country should do whatever is necessary to keep their economies stable. Were the 'free-trade' initiatives that Bill Clinton embarked on in the 90's not 'progressive' (If he wasn't selling with that is)?
Old 06-26-2010, 07:16 PM Gabbo is offline  
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Tom Kazansky
911 Was an Inside Job. Bush is traitor like Prescott Bush
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Your average liberal doesn't want to see illegal immigration run rampant either, really the only people who want that are certain business interests. Most liberals want to make it easier to become a legitimate citizen.

Except they have a much higher tolerance for illegals and don't seem to be particularly bothered by them.

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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
As far as the "progressive" slant, pyramid dealt with that pretty well. It's not an arbitrary term like you're trying to make it.

That's fair enough, but like everything else in politics, the "definitions" are often blurred.

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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
From a progressive value standpoint: the Drug War is incredibly wasteful, jails millions of Americans, increases the power of the state while accomplishing basically nothing, and funnels money into the hands of vastly powerful criminal gangs which are destabilizing our neighbors in this Hemisphere. History showed us the consequences of Prohibition, but we apparently didn't learn much from it. It's not so much about smoking pot as it is about removing all the negatives from fighting it.

So you agree heroin and cocaine should be legal and readily available for purchase?

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Also, pot is not a narcotic.

Except that it is treated as such by the Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, which the USA is signatory to, so that doesn't matter.
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:23 PM Tom Kazansky is offline  
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I don't want to wade into the drug debate, but if things are indeed shifting to the left, the right has only the Republican party it supports, and itself to blame. The modern-day Republican party has very little or anything to do with the traditional conservative values and fiscal responsability that used to make it a sensible choice.

Hell, Regan is a right-wing icon these days and this is a guy who tripled the deficit.
Old 06-26-2010, 10:55 PM Cads is offline  
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HeLLFiRe
 
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Originally Posted by Xayd View Post
you've been watching too much glenn beck. you should stop.

if we had been on a right leaning trend, right defined by the republicans of the past 10 years, for the past 50 years, the entire country would look like an indian slum, and would be ruled by a military oligarchy.

the fact is, the current 'right' is nothing more than failed political marketing. it never had any ideas worth espousing. the 'right' of 30 years ago was more left than the left is today. you are 20% of the voting public, time to come to terms with the perpetual minority.

Because you believe that Liberal social and economic policies have all been beneficial for America? Continually raising minimum wage has been disastrous for America. Twelve million illegal aliens has been disastrous for America. Forcing banks to provide loans to unqualified people has been disastrous for America. Forcing oil companies into deep water drilling and foreign dependency has been disastrous for America. Free health care and taxpayer subsidized education for illegal aliens at the expense of everyone else hasn't been good either for America. Liberals have proven that they will do anything for votes, even destroy the very fabric of this country to get and maintain control. Just about every policy they have come up with works like a ponzi scheme. It all looked good on paper as long as the population kept growing and wages continually increased but as soon as the baby boomers grew up it all unraveled.
Sometimes the Right is no better, for example maintaining military bases all over the world to provide defense for countries that are bleeding us dry (korea, Japan, Philippines, Germany, England and 58 other countries). In twenty years, our country will look like a slum from India as long as the same policies are maintained.
Old 06-26-2010, 10:56 PM HeLLFiRe is offline  
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JCviggen
 
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Because you believe that Liberal social and economic policies have all been beneficial for America? Continually raising minimum wage has been disastrous for America. Twelve million illegal aliens has been disastrous for America. Forcing banks to provide loans to unqualified people has been disastrous for America. Forcing oil companies into deep water drilling and foreign dependency has been disastrous for America. Free health care and taxpayer subsidized education for illegal aliens at the expense of everyone else hasn't been good either for America.

There's so many things wong with that (nearly everything) but I'm sure it sounds good in a redneck bar.


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Liberals have proven that they will do anything for votes
That goes for any politician on any side. If you only notice it about "liberals" your vision is skewed.
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Old 06-27-2010, 01:22 AM JCviggen is offline  
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Originally Posted by HeLLFiRe View Post
Because you believe that Liberal social and economic policies have all been beneficial for America? Continually raising minimum wage has been disastrous for America. Twelve million illegal aliens has been disastrous for America. Forcing banks to provide loans to unqualified people has been disastrous for America. Forcing oil companies into deep water drilling and foreign dependency has been disastrous for America. Free health care and taxpayer subsidized education for illegal aliens at the expense of everyone else hasn't been good either for America. Liberals have proven that they will do anything for votes, even destroy the very fabric of this country to get and maintain control. Just about every policy they have come up with works like a ponzi scheme. It all looked good on paper as long as the population kept growing and wages continually increased but as soon as the baby boomers grew up it all unraveled.
Sometimes the Right is no better, for example maintaining military bases all over the world to provide defense for countries that are bleeding us dry (korea, Japan, Philippines, Germany, England and 58 other countries). In twenty years, our country will look like a slum from India as long as the same policies are maintained.


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Old 06-27-2010, 01:55 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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Gibonius
 
A selection of your retardation:
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Twelve million illegal aliens has been disastrous for America.
Conservatives are just as much to blame for the wave of illegals (perhaps moreso). Know which President last passed an amnesty for illegals? Conservatives have been in power far more than liberals over the last 30 years and could have addressed the issue and have not. They don't because business leaders don't want them to, and it's an easy political target, so they leave it around while doing nothing.
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Forcing banks to provide loans to unqualified people has been disastrous for America.
This accounted for maybe 1:20 loans, the banks were quite happy to make terrible terrible loans on their own.

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Forcing oil companies into deep water drilling and foreign dependency has been disastrous for America.
...how is this a liberal problem?
Old 06-27-2010, 08:35 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
Except they have a much higher tolerance for illegals and don't seem to be particularly bothered by them.
That has little to do with policy. Very few people on the street, liberal or conservative, are content with our current immigration policy. Liberals are more likely to be ok with those people who have come here illegally, but that doesn't they don't realize our policies need to be fixed.
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So you agree heroin and cocaine should be legal and readily available for purchase?
I certainly believe that marijuana should be legal and not even controlled any more strictly than alcohol. The more serious drugs, I'm not so sure how to deal with. It would be hard to see how a controlled recreational drug market could be much worse than we have now though. Could regulate purity, earn some money, not spend so much money on enforcement, and probably most importantly, keep money out of the hands of the drug cartels. Anyone who wants drugs can get them rather easily today already, so I wouldn't expect a big spike is usage.
Old 06-27-2010, 08:50 AM Gibonius is offline  
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TheMorlock
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The conservatives dont like to address the illegal problem because that gives the left wing ammunition to pander votes from hispanic communities. So they try to do compromise solutions and then the left hangs them out to dry. Just like you are trying It's a no win issue for the right wing.

As far as the Oil drilling goes, that a mixture of liberal ecofreaks and NIMBY from both sides.
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Old 06-27-2010, 08:50 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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The conservatives dont like to address the illegal problem because that gives the left wing ammunition to pander votes from hispanic communities. So they try to do compromise solutions and then the left hangs them out to dry. Just like you are trying It's a no win issue for the right wing.
Also conservative business interests like having a horde of illegals to work for them, and lobby as such.
Quote:
As far as the Oil drilling goes, that a mixture of liberal ecofreaks and NIMBY from both sides.
The main issue here has very little to do with drilling policies and everything to do with the fact that our country uses 30% of the world's supply of oil, while not being capable under even ideal circumstances of producing that much. That's not a liberal or conservative problem, it's something we've all done over the last hundred years.
Old 06-27-2010, 08:54 AM Gibonius is offline  
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TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Also conservative business interests like having a horde of illegals to work for them, and lobby as such.

The main issue here has very little to do with drilling policies and everything to do with the fact that our country uses 30% of the world's supply of oil, while not being capable under even ideal circumstances of producing that much. That's not a liberal or conservative problem, it's something we've all done over the last hundred years.


The extent we depend on oil of course has nothing to do with liberal ecofreaks halting all work on nuclear power plants for decades
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:11 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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The extent we depend on oil of course has nothing to do with liberal ecofreaks halting all work on nuclear power plants for decades

I don't think the "liberal ecofreak" voting bloc is so powerful that they could have blocked all nuclear power for decades across the country, including highly conservative regions. We had a general failure of political leadership, no one wanted to push to rehabilitate the image of nuclear and sell the public on it.

And we're getting our first new nuclear plant in almost four decades, signed off on by Obama. None under Reagan, Bush I, or Bush II. It's in a conservative state (GA), which is probably noteworthy.
Old 06-27-2010, 11:37 AM Gibonius is offline  
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