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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2[H]4U View Post
If you piss off the wrong type of people enough times they will RETALIATE, whether or not it is right or wrong isn't the question. The point is that when you fuck with other people they will do whatever they can to fuck with you back.

yeah i will remember that when this thing gets vandalized on a daily basis, if its ever actually built that is.

regardless of whether or not there was a good argument to his statement, saying something like that while trying to uphold a certain image of peace and understanding is not going to help you, i really don't see what's so hard to understand about this.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:02 PM Redrum is offline  
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funny though, how you bring up the crusades and perhaps the reasons for them, apparently trying to establish islam is inherently more violent. I don't see why else you'd say such things.

Then again, I guess this holds water if you look at world history "objectively" and attribute every shitskin invasion towards some assbackwards cult religion, while conveniently categorizing western colonialism and everything else under the sun towards other motives, though they were made by people who saw themselves to be christian.

But I guess, those don't count.
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Old 08-23-2010, 12:41 PM Straw Man is offline  
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i'd say there's a distinct difference between the west's motivations for expansionism which were more rooted in politics, whereas islam's motivations were more theocratic.

the heads of the various caliphates throughout history were religious leaders. the heads of the various western empires were not.

that's not to necessarily excuse the wests' sins either. just an interesting distinction that should be noted.
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:04 PM Redrum is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
i'd say there's a distinct difference between the west's motivations for expansionism which were more rooted in politics, whereas islam's motivations were more theocratic.

the heads of the various caliphates throughout history were religious leaders. the heads of the various western empires were not.

that's not to necessarily excuse the wests' sins either. just an interesting distinction that should be noted.

I think that Fundamentalist Islam's motivation is rooted in politics and power too; it's just veiled in religion (like so many other efforts)
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:52 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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So...

- Are they building this mosque as a extremist recruitment center / place to launch more attacks / similar "strategic post"? No.
- Are they building the mosque to celebrate 9/11, eg. are they going to hang a big fucking "holy shit, we blew up the WTC! yay for us!" banner on the front? No.
- Is it "bad taste?" If you seriously believe that the people who were responsible for 9/11 have anything to do with the building of this mosque, you deserve to be offended by your own ignorance.

Let them build the fucking thing.

Though, part of me wishes they won't - reason being that the moment it's built, the thing will probably be firebombed/shot up/protested/etc by the ignorant, and give islamic extremists even more reason to do more shit to the US. Fucking with a mosque is a serious no-no, even to non-extremist muslims.
Old 08-23-2010, 03:43 PM gee is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
care to post a source?

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/0...ar-ground-zero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:04 PM pyramid is offline  
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i am already aware that there are number of mosques in the area, however none of those links you provided do not agree with fly's assertion that this particular building in question was already used as a mosque before 9/11.

as far as i can tell it was not. it was used by the burlington coat factory, and it was purchased relatively recently by those who wish to demolish it and develop it into a mosque, or "muslim recreational center"
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:10 PM Redrum is offline  
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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I think that Fundamentalist Islam's motivation is rooted in politics and power too; it's just veiled in religion (like so many other efforts)

islam and politics have always been deeply intertwined in the muslim world, the scripture itself encourages muslims to do this. that's not to say to say christianity and politics were not very intricately linked at one point.

the main issue to me is that it persists to this day. i do not think this is a good thing whatsoever.

ironically, the man who did the most for arab secularism was saddam houssein.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:12 PM Redrum is offline  
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Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
i am already aware that there are number of mosques in the area, however none of those links you provided do not agree with fly's assertion that this particular building in question was already used as a mosque before 9/11.

as far as i can tell it was not. it was used by the burlington coat factory, and it was purchased relatively recently by those who wish to demolish it and develop it into a mosque, or "muslim recreational center"

I don't think it was in use as a mosque before 9/11 either. But it has already been used as a mosque in recent times before this whole controversy was cooked up without any issues.
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Old 08-23-2010, 04:15 PM pyramid is offline  
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Ron Paul to Sunshine Patriots: Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque!

Is the controversy over building a mosque near ground zero a grand distraction or a grand opportunity? Or is it, once again, grandiose demagoguery?

It has been said, “Nero fiddled while Rome burned.” Are we not overly preoccupied with this controversy, now being used in various ways by grandstanding politicians? It looks to me like the politicians are “fiddling while the economy burns.”

The debate should have provided the conservative defenders of property rights with a perfect example of how the right to own property also protects the 1st Amendment rights of assembly and religion by supporting the building of the mosque.

Instead, we hear lip service given to the property rights position while demanding that the need to be “sensitive” requires an all-out assault on the building of a mosque, several blocks from “ground zero.”

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

Many fellow conservatives say they understand the property rights and 1st Amendment issues and don’t want a legal ban on building the mosque. They just want everybody to be “sensitive” and force, through public pressure, cancellation of the mosque construction.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.

Defending the controversial use of property should be no more difficult than defending the 1st Amendment principle of defending controversial speech. But many conservatives and liberals do not want to diminish the hatred for Islam–the driving emotion that keeps us in the wars in the Middle East and Central Asia.

It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.

The House Speaker is now treading on a slippery slope by demanding a Congressional investigation to find out just who is funding the mosque—a bold rejection of property rights, 1st Amendment rights, and the Rule of Law—in order to look tough against Islam.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended.

Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ro...he-nyc-mosque/

Thank you Ron Paul.
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Old 08-23-2010, 06:30 PM pyramid is offline  
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lot of things about pon raul i don't agree with but a more devoted politician to the constitution there is none
Old 08-23-2010, 06:41 PM SemperFly is offline  
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It is repeatedly said that 64% of the people, after listening to the political demagogues, don’t want the mosque to be built. What would we do if 75% of the people insist that no more Catholic churches be built in New York City? The point being is that majorities can become oppressors of minority rights as well as individual dictators. Statistics of support is irrelevant when it comes to the purpose of government in a free society—protecting liberty.

The outcry over the building of the mosque, near ground zero, implies that Islam alone was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. According to those who are condemning the building of the mosque, the nineteen suicide terrorists on 9/11 spoke for all Muslims. This is like blaming all Christians for the wars of aggression and occupation because some Christians supported the neo-conservatives’ aggressive wars.
irony, considering the bush voters are precisely the bigots crying about other religions having buildings too.
Old 08-23-2010, 09:07 PM Xayd is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kazansky View Post
I suppose doing basic research on the topic is just too much for you to handle, isn't it? Here, I'll do your fucking job for you.



http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...r-ground-zero/

Satisfied? Or is CNN too "racist" and/or "biased" for you to give any credence to that?

Thanks for coming out.

"70% of all americans"

Didn't know they could poll 300+ million americans...
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:51 PM 2[H]4U is offline  
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they polled just over 1000
Old 08-23-2010, 09:52 PM SemperFly is offline  
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Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

I thought I answered this in my last post. It was all started by a hate group called SIOA.

I think a similar analogy would be if two Nigerian black men blew up a mall full of every color person, then nine years later someone wanted to build a college aimed at African American students several blocks away.
Then the KKK shows up and starts protesting the college because they don't want black people in america. To stop the blackification of America.
And they bitch and moan long enough for desperate news organizations hungry for ratings to pick up their story, then bam! Instant national debate about why should black people be allowed to build near sacred holy land of white people land, when the whole damn point of the bombing was some Nigerian fucks who hated all Americans.
Old 08-23-2010, 11:05 PM TriaD is offline  
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