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h0tsauce
 
Educational system in terms of degree requirements...

From what i know, or think, to teach from kindergarten through high school you need to have some sort of education degree and yet to teach in college you don't.

I'm just wondering if you guys can help me understand why you don't need an education degree to teach in college or beyond.

I feel like you should have one to teach at any level, if you don't need one to teach at the highest level of education then why do you need one to teach the alphabet and simple math?

I understand that the higher education system sees that people with high levels of education with published documents, a life time of experience in the related field, etc. count for something, but there is more to teaching than just knowledge and isn't that why teachers at the high-school and elementary level need a degree? They need to be taught how to appropriately transfer knowledge to another person in an constructive, formal, efficient, and ethical manner.

Thoughts?
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:45 AM h0tsauce is offline  
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:56 AM Kinky Kelly is offline  
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The concept is that pre-collegiate edutation does not require collegiate level subject knowledge.

That is: a elementary school math teacher does not need pinnacle expertise in mathematics as would a professor of the same topic in a university.

That being said: I would think that a PhD seeking a professorship could use a teaching degree as a boon to their credentials.... however when I work hands-on with a research professor so that I might gain some experience and knowledge about the research process it wouldn't matter to me whether or not he/she has a teaching degree.
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Old 11-18-2010, 02:22 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Jason
 
College professors can kick their pupils out of the classroom permanently. Those in PK-12 cannot. Therefore they need to know not only how to manage a classroom but also how to teach to not yet fully developed minds. Hence the need for a degree in education rather than just the subject area.
Also in high schools you can teach with a degree in the subject area.
Old 11-18-2010, 02:29 PM Jason is offline  
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Vendetta
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You absolutely do not need to have a degree in Education to teach K-12 education, who told you that.

And also there is disparate reserach into teacher value added modeling as to what particular teacher educational background is connected to greater student outcomes. Some research demonstrates that having an advanced degree in educational instruction/curriculum/theory is better, some indicate that an advanced study in the content you teach is better.

In college, well, teaching is decidedly secondary for a professors main employment, no matter what universities tell you. This is for research universities, of course, not teaching colleges nor for adjuncts.
Old 11-18-2010, 03:40 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Gibonius
 
I'm a professor at a teaching college, and have no education training. I think a lot of the reason why they don't require education training is simply because you'd never get enough people who have a PhD in their subject and education training. I know way the hell more chemistry than I need to for this job, but it gives me a depth of experience that someone with only a BS and then an education degree would never be able to get across.

Beyond that, there's a significant difference in expectation from the students. In K-12, the teachers have a much greater expectation to drag their students to success, teach them learning skills as much as facts. In college...professors can basically let students sink or swim. I spend a decent amount of time helping my students, of course, but passing the class is primarily their responsibility, I do not feel like I've done anything wrong if a student fails.

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Originally Posted by Vendetta
In college, well, teaching is decidedly secondary for a professors main employment, no matter what universities tell you. This is for research universities, of course, not teaching colleges nor for adjuncts.
This is absolute truth, and really underappreciated by most people. Research and writing is what they really want to be doing, not teaching.
Old 11-18-2010, 06:59 PM Gibonius is offline  
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h0tsauce
 
thanks for the replies guys
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:08 PM h0tsauce is offline  
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Vendetta
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I miss the Educational Policy discussion thread I had
Old 11-19-2010, 04:38 AM Vendetta is offline  
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Runding
 
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Lately I've been taking a basic geology lecture/lab at the local CC, and I can't believe they hired this woman. Generally, the teachers at the CC's here have been quite good, but every so often I come across a teacher who just plain shouldn't be there.

There have been numerous occasions where I'll ask a basic question and get a "Well uh... I'm not really sure. You'll have to go to the book and look it up." It seems that as long as she's reading off a powerpoint some other dude made, she acts like she knows it all, but the moment she has to apply the concepts she's a blubbering doofus.

/rant

So to add another question to the pile -- how do these "teachers" actually get into a position of teaching, when they 1) Only use course material from other professors 2) Can't pass the same exam they give you to take?
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Old 11-19-2010, 07:59 AM Runding is offline  
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So to add another question to the pile -- how do these "teachers" actually get into a position of teaching, when they 1) Only use course material from other professors 2) Can't pass the same exam they give you to take?

Community colleges don't usually have the luxury of making sure all their professors have experience. She's probably an adjunct prof, might be her first class, and she might still be in school. If she's really bad,they just won't rehire her, but whoever gets her in the meantime might suffer. Hiring teachers is somewhat an inexact process.

In these economic conditions, community colleges aren't getting the budget to hire and retain good teachers. I'm much better now than my first semester, but I'll be leaving the school shortly because I'm not tenure track and the benefits package just doesn't add up. The school I'm at now basically paid to train me, but won't get the long-term benefits. They'll likely replace me with someone else fresh out of their degree with minimal teaching experience, who will repeat the same cycle.
Old 11-19-2010, 08:46 AM Gibonius is offline  
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mohavewolfpup
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Originally Posted by Runding View Post
Lately I've been taking a basic geology lecture/lab at the local CC, and I can't believe they hired this woman. Generally, the teachers at the CC's here have been quite good, but every so often I come across a teacher who just plain shouldn't be there.

There have been numerous occasions where I'll ask a basic question and get a "Well uh... I'm not really sure. You'll have to go to the book and look it up." It seems that as long as she's reading off a powerpoint some other dude made, she acts like she knows it all, but the moment she has to apply the concepts she's a blubbering doofus.

/rant

So to add another question to the pile -- how do these "teachers" actually get into a position of teaching, when they 1) Only use course material from other professors 2) Can't pass the same exam they give you to take?

Profit and warm bodies. The community college I used to work for about 6 months after I left was in the news locally for firing about 60% of the teaching staff with bogus degrees. I worked in the IT department as a student worker, and it was pathetic.

From my boss setting up teachers lab simulations (none of them could do it, he was self taught in alot of microsoft products, he only did it so the kids would get a half decent education) to us student workers having to walk the head of the Adobe division (flash,photoshop,all of that) through turning a laptop on, opening photoshop, applying filters, etc etc it was disgusting!

All of my criminial justice teachers just read from the book verbatim, droning on and on. One of them I went upstairs to take the final, finding a stack of tests on the desk and a note from a student aid "take the test and leave it here, or drop in mailbox #whatever"

At that point I just snapped, not even bothering to take the test. Got a B or a C in it, can't remember. Was one of those. he droned on and on through the entire semester from a book. The class was literally a 2 hour or so "oprahs book club" maybe a few questions got asked of a student, then it was over until next week. Many times you would even come in, and he would be a half hour or more late for the class....

A cisco teacher I had also would drone on and on. He once spent about 45 minutes filling up two chalk boards (yes, chalk boards. older room at the original campus from the 70's) with nothing but binary. He would put do it like this:

1: 10101010101010101010101010101010
2. 01010101010101011111000000000000
3. 010101010101010104320010110101010

and so forth. Bad example, but you get it. Everyone in the class was very bored and glazed over from this. After his 45 minute art class, err drawing exhibition, he then insisted you "MUST MEMORIZE ALL THIS!"

He felt that using calculators (ie subnet calculators, or scratch paper based methods to calculate subnets properly) was not tolerable at all "real society does not allow you to use a calculator!"

Excuse me? If i'm responsible for a network that it is absolutely a must that half of it is supposed to be subnetted offline and not allowed access to the internet/main network, you better fucking believe i'm breaking out the subnet calculators, extra scratch paper, and whatever else it takes, even a second opinion if need be!

I always pictured his rhetoric as the following:

"okay boss, i'm almost done with this building you want. It's 500 stories, has all your office space in it, etc etc. Start building it!"

5 months later, it falls over, killing everyone inside. "How the hell did this happen! The building inspector said you chose a inferior grade of concrete and didn't calculate the wind stresses it would be under!" "uhh, boss, well, when I went to school, I was told *everything* must be done in my head, that the real world doesn't use calculators, or slide rulers, or even scratch paper!"

To me, a calculator/slider ruler/etc is a tool like everything else. If you have a mission critical application, of course you are going to go the extra mile that your T's are crossed and the I's dotted....

All places care about lately is the profit. Even "community" colleges are for profit ventures. The one here usually rotates politicians around from the state, or even has them sitting on the board of regents while they also do double duty say as a city council member...

Dig around the country, and I bet that would crop up alot. Former or Current politicians on the educational system take. Or they get their start in a local government run college or a private for profit one, and then become a politician. Same crap different wrapper either way....
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:37 PM mohavewolfpup is offline  
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^^^

My degree is in physics. Exams in the more difficult classes were always open-book because it didn't help you.
You would waste more time looking up tables and formulae than you were allowed for the exam.... if you didn't know how to do the problem then the book wasn't going to be any help anyway.

In the "real" world, a professional should use all resources available to solve a problem. I've always felt that that challenge is in developing an approach and validating your results.
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Old 12-09-2010, 05:40 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Profit and warm bodies. The community college I used to work for about 6 months after I left was in the news locally for firing about 60% of the teaching staff with bogus degrees. I worked in the IT department as a student worker, and it was pathetic.

All places care about lately is the profit. Even "community" colleges are for profit ventures. The one here usually rotates politicians around from the state, or even has them sitting on the board of regents while they also do double duty say as a city council member...

I don't know what kind of school you were exposed to, but the idea that profit is driving anything in the community college system is kind of absurd. They're non-profit institutions Salaries are controlled externally, so they can't even jack up salaries to squirrel away potential profit. They're almost universally dependent on state funding for survival, and tuition is a minimal income source at best (especially since so many kids are on various forms of government assistance).

Unless you were stupid enough to sign up for University of Phoenix or one of the other for-profit schools, which are NOT community colleges, I think this is just more bitter mojavewolfpup ranting with no grounding in reality.
Old 12-09-2010, 07:05 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Vendetta
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Quote:
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I think this is just more bitter mojavewolfpup ranting with no grounding in reality.


Last edited by Vendetta; 12-10-2010 at 07:36 PM..
Old 12-10-2010, 07:11 PM Vendetta is offline  
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loner
 
Re: Educational system in terms of degree requirements...

As a high school teacher, I can tell you that, at least in my state, that while you can definitely become a k12 teacher without a degree in education, there are a few advantages to having the education degree. The main one is knowing about classroom management, but another is that after you have a degree in education, if you can pass a test, you can teach any subject you want. For example, I have a degree in education, and my emphasis is in English, but I have been teaching the high school band for nearly five years now because I was able to add instrumental music to my license just by passing a test. If you just have a degree in, say, history and wanted to do the same thing I did, you'd have to head back to college and take a couple of years of college.

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