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matt00926
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TSA pat-down legal question and general discussion

This may be stupid but I am wondering if the pat-downs implemented by TSA are illegal? It seems that even suspected criminals have more rights than travelers at airports.

For instance, as far as I know, in order for an officer to pat-down a suspect, legally speaking, they must have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed or is about to commit a specific crime. Furthermore, when an officer conducts a pat-down and feels contraband other than a weapon or items of evidence not specifically related to the crime the officer suspects the person of committing, he is not legally allowed to seize the items, as the pat-down is designed to quell the danger to the officer and citizens in the area. (This is why I have heard some officers use the "empty your pockets" trick, fooling dumb or ignorant people into bringing contraband into plain sight and basically digging their own graves.)

Since it seems that a person must be suspected of committing/about to commit a specific crime before being stopped and frisked by an officer, why is it that these rules do not apply to people traveling by air?

Grandmas and children have been subjected to pat-downs, kids watching their parents get patted down, etc., all supposedly to "keep us safe," yet you see reporters and others bringing all sorts of stuff through the airport just to show that security is a joke. What we need is not more and more intrusive measures that are all for show, we need to actually hire people with brains so we can restore the freedoms that these terrorists supposedly are jealous of.

What will happen if a dud bomb fails to go off in someone's anal cavity? Will we then be bending over for inspection like they do in prison?




Just reading these two articles you get a gist of how absurd airport security is in the USA:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/ny...l?ref=nyregion

At Kennedy International Airport

Quote:
- Author of the article being informed why she was groped everywhere: "...A spokesman for the T.S.A. informed me, afterward, the officers’ job was: to assess whether I posed a threat to aviation. He would not comment on whether that should have included checking out the objects hidden in my pocket. All I know is I went through the line eight times, and not a single inspector noticed them."

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-carried/7057/



Feel free to post your personal experiences, your thoughts, how retarded I am, etc.
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:12 AM matt00926 is offline  
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Zangmonkey
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Officers can perform a "Terry" frisk, which is brief to check for weapons for the officer's safety.
The TSA "enhanced" pat-down is much more invasive than the standard police frisk.

Mostly I have an issue with the concept that there can be civil penalties if you refuse to proceed with the procedure.
Remember "don't touch my junk" guy? Well apparently if you refuse then there are big fines.... though I would *dare* the TSA to bring that suit.

I'm not afraid of radiation. I'm sure the backscatter machines are less dangerous than many machines people use every day.
Nonetheless, because the machines are classified they have not been evaluated by third party tests... so I can understand people not wanting to use them... furthermore we have been told repeatedly by TSA that no images are saved... but somehow leaks keep coming out.... magic!


I don't know why we've consented to this or why we've let fear jeopardize our common sense... but it's pretty scary how complacent people are with these things when the consequence is something as trivial as missing a flight.
At the end of the day, the government created jobs... albeit for functionally illiterate "officers" who probably stopped just after their GED.


I was traveling with my in-laws. He is in the FBI so he is required to carry his weapon on the flight and serve as an armed air marshal. So he declares this to security and they usher him through. His wife has had multiple surgeries and has a number of pins, plates, etc so she always sets off machines.

While her husband, who is carrying a gun onto the plane, stands with her TSA is checking her inner thighs and under her bra wires.... for weapons?
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Old 11-28-2010, 03:37 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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TheMorlock
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I know it's part of our common law but dont know how it's codified
But we have the right to travel freely and do not require travel documents within the USA.
So it seems the pat down is illegal without cause. Traveling is not cause.
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Old 11-28-2010, 06:39 PM TheMorlock is offline  
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I know it's part of our common law but dont know how it's codified
But we have the right to travel freely and do not require travel documents within the USA.
So it seems the pat down is illegal without cause. Traveling is not cause.

TSA's response is that we don't have a right to travel freely *by commuter air*
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Old 11-28-2010, 07:18 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
Officers can perform a "Terry" frisk, which is brief to check for weapons for the officer's safety. The TSA "enhanced" pat-down is much more invasive than the standard police frisk.

Much more invasive---like the TSA employees who ignored the elderly man who persisted that he had a medical condition (a urine bag connected to his stomach) and ended up going onto the plane with his own piss all over himself without an apology because they groped him without being careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
Mostly I have an issue with the concept that there can be civil penalties if you refuse to proceed with the procedure.
Remember "don't touch my junk" guy? Well apparently if you refuse then there are big fines.... though I would *dare* the TSA to bring that suit.

Yes, this is scary...I may not be a fan of NYPD having the ability to randomly check people's bags in the subway here, but at least I have the right to say no and leave the subway station without fear of penalty (I'm sure I will be harassed, but the law is on my side at least).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I'm not afraid of radiation. I'm sure the backscatter machines are less dangerous than many machines people use every day.
Nonetheless, because the machines are classified they have not been evaluated by third party tests... so I can understand people not wanting to use them... furthermore we have been told repeatedly by TSA that no images are saved... but somehow leaks keep coming out.... magic!

I don't know why we've consented to this or why we've let fear jeopardize our common sense... but it's pretty scary how complacent people are with these things when the consequence is something as trivial as missing a flight.
At the end of the day, the government created jobs... albeit for functionally illiterate "officers" who probably stopped just after their GED.

I can tell some TSA employees are professional but it's also obvious that some have stopped just after their GED like you said, and they are not qualified at all. Security requires intelligence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I was traveling with my in-laws. He is in the FBI so he is required to carry his weapon on the flight and serve as an armed air marshal. So he declares this to security and they usher him through. His wife has had multiple surgeries and has a number of pins, plates, etc so she always sets off machines. While her husband, who is carrying a gun onto the plane, stands with her TSA is checking her inner thighs and under her bra wires.... for weapons?

That's ridiculous. If you skim the articles I posted in the OP you will see that many times TSA manages to confiscate your water while missing fake passports and boarding passes, terrorist paraphernalia, and box cutters
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:11 PM matt00926 is offline  
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I guess if you don't like it, don't fly. I would rather get felt up and make it to my destination alive.

It is so easy to bad mouth tsa, but just remember that for the most part they are just trying to do their job and go home. It is very easy to name call and bad mouth something you know nothing about.

If you really want to bash them, do it from the supervisors on up. they are the ones making all the decisions.
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:59 AM Master_Shake is offline  
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I still think the whole thing's a crock of shit. Two good things happened after 9/11:

- Heavy doors were installed on airplane cockpits, which are locked during flight, so you're not hijacking a plane.
- Passengers are far more observant of what other passengers on the plane are up to, so if anyone tries anything or pulls something out, they're going to get jumped and subdued.

And assuming terrorists realize this, and I'm assuming they're not dumb enough not to, they're not going to attempt any more shit on planes. Hell, they've already moved on to things like trying to bomb cargo planes with fake toner cartridges.

The body scanners and pat downs on the other hand, all they do is create a big, dense crowd of people at the lineup of airport security, in an unsecured zone where anyone can bring in a backpack full of explosive and likely cause an even bigger casualty number than you can do by bringing down a whole plane. And how the hell do you guard against that? Put another security lineup at the entrance to the airport?
Old 11-29-2010, 04:35 AM gee is offline  
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There was a case earlier, where airport security suddenly demanded to be able to frisk pilots/make them pass security.

To which the pilots said: Do we need guns/bombs to bring down a plane?
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:53 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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Also, how long until any western airline hires a Middle Eastern pilot?
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:54 AM Bukkakeboy is offline  
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I say go the Israeli route and profile everyone that attempts to fly. Screw the whole "check your boobs for bombs" crap, just interrogate the hell out of everyone, along with the standard metal detectors.

Of course, that would require more money and training that apparently isn't worth it. Oh yea, and rights groups would cry.

And wtf, check the damn cargo.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:45 AM Runding is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Shake View Post
I guess if you don't like it, don't fly. I would rather get felt up and make it to my destination alive.

It is so easy to bad mouth tsa, but just remember that for the most part they are just trying to do their job and go home. It is very easy to name call and bad mouth something you know nothing about.

If you really want to bash them, do it from the supervisors on up. they are the ones making all the decisions.

You are proceeding under the assumption that these new measures actually make us safer. I contend the opposite: they make us less safe.
That being said, I don't blame TSA agents for doing their job.... I blame the paper-pushers and politicians who make these ridiculous rules and the American public which tolerates it.

I recommend you read Bruce Schneir's blogs on the subject.
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:13 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Quote:
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I guess if you don't like it, don't fly. I would rather get felt up and make it to my destination alive.

if you seriously think the tsa does anything to keep you alive, I have a bridge to sell you

Terrorist s are not stopped at the airport. If they've made it that far, it's too late and you're going to die. If they managed to evade detection by the CIA, DIA, NSA and FBI what the hell makes you think the fat bitch who waves you through the scanner is going to catch achmed at his dastardly plan?

I fly all the time and I've gotten on planes with small knives and bottles well over 3oz plenty of times. Even if I were to try to take over a plane with a pocket knife, do you really think in this current climate that I'd survive the severe tackling and beatdown by the entire mob of passengers? Do you think there is any dangerous explosive I can make with 4 ounces of liquid that I couldn't make with 3 ounces?

Newsflash: the majority of air cargo that your airline takes on in order to mitigate fuel costs is never inspected, not even by simple x-ray machines. If I want to blow up a plane, I ship a bomb with a gps transmitter and set it to blow when it exceeds 300mph.

The TSA does nothing to get you to your destination alive. Nothing. At best it's a useless waste of money, at worst it's making us less safe not only by lulling the populace into a false sense of security but it's taking money away from the intelligence community and local law enforcement.
Old 11-29-2010, 09:24 AM SemperFly is offline  
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Are you implying that billy joe bob who was on welfare last week and was hired and trained by the TSA to bump up employment figures is not qualified to stop ba la la bombers disguised as old ladies in wheelchairs?
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Old 11-29-2010, 11:47 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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Are you implying that billy joe bob who was on welfare last week and was hired and trained by the TSA to bump up employment figures is not qualified to stop ba la la bombers disguised as old ladies in wheelchairs?
Are you really that much of an idiot or was that a joke post?
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:45 AM Master_Shake is offline  
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I guess if you don't like it, don't fly. I would rather get felt up and make it to my destination alive.

It is so easy to bad mouth tsa, but just remember that for the most part they are just trying to do their job and go home. It is very easy to name call and bad mouth something you know nothing about.

If you really want to bash them, do it from the supervisors on up. they are the ones making all the decisions.

That's a terrible justification for it, it's a dangerous slippery slope all in the name of "security." If it weren't so terribly stupid it would be laughable, every attempted terrorist attack of late hasn't been stopped or even impeded by the TSA, who then crank out reactionary policies that accomplish nothing. It's like a real life version of Captain Hindsight.

As for the second part about badmouthing the TSA, I think it's perfectly justifiable to point out flaws at every level. Most of the serious abuse allegations we've heard about were not in any way sanctioned by TSA leadership or in accordance with TSA policy, they were carried out at the lowest level by dangerously unqualified people.
Old 11-30-2010, 06:19 AM KiIroy is offline  
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