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JCviggen
 
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Originally Posted by topcat989 View Post

Stats don't lie. Down here pretty much no-one has a gun, many people have never een a real one IRL even. As a result gun related deaths are 1/12th the US' number for homicides, a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that) and 1/10th for accidents.

Modern society doesn't NEED guns for protection, you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there.

As for the speed limit thing, well nowdays people need transport. Pretty much all forms of transport are mildly dangerous one way or another. But few would argue transport isn't essential. It needs to be somewhat efficient to so 1mph doesnt work well. I dont know stats about the US but I know that here on the highways you can count speed related deaths on 1 hand. There are no solid objects to hit, most deaths involve truck drivers napping. Anyway, by comparison guns are not essential period. They are mostly toys or dick extentions that serve no real practical purpose. Again, plenty of countries get along just fine with almost no privately owned guns at all. I do not see how you could support the argument that America is better off because of its love for guns.

But of course at this point it is pretty much impossible to transform your whole civilisation into something different than what it is now. It's not practically or politically possible. Just one of those "if you could go back to the beginning" kind of things.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:53 PM JCviggen is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
Extended magazines were illegal for a long time, since the ban was lifted, we've had two mass shooting featuring handguns with extended magazines. There appears to be something compelling about them to crazies, vs just carrying a couple guns.

What's the real benefit to legitimate civilian users for these things, other than "I don't want to reload as often at the range"?

the biggest shootout in american history happened during the AWB with fully automatic weapons, extended mags, body armor, etc...

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It's a good thing those guys were robbers and not looking to murder people or that could have been more like our very own Mumbai terrorism shootings.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:54 PM pyramid is offline  
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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
Stats don't lie. Down here pretty much no-one has a gun, many people have never een a real one IRL even. As a result gun related deaths are 1/12th the US' number for homicides, a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that) and 1/10th for accidents.

what is your total population versus ours? 1/10th?
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:55 PM pyramid is offline  
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
I accept the fact that we're never going to be able to eliminate mass shootings, given the prevalence of guns and the gun culture in the US. But I don't think throwing our hands up and saying "Mass shooting happen!" is a reason for a free-for-all to give civilians access to any and all levels of weaponry and accessories, especially things that have awfully limited application for conventional civilian use.
"limited application for conventional civilian use" sure is a very relative phrase. I'm not saying that I entirely disagree with you, I just think that the extended mag is a non-issue. Now, if grenades were legal to have around, that would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
Stats don't lie. Down here pretty much no-one has a gun, many people have never een a real one IRL even. As a result gun related deaths are 1/12th the US' number for homicides, a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that) and 1/10th for accidents.

Modern society doesn't NEED guns for protection, you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there.

So you say "a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that)", which would make the homicides stat a "pointless stat", too, right? What a terrible logical fallacy.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:20 PM Runding is offline  
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JCviggen
 
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what is your total population versus ours? 1/10th?

They are figures per 100K inhabitants. So irrelevant. And if you add some W-european countries together you have the same total population as the US with the same statistical difference in gun deaths. Google is your friend.

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Originally Posted by Runding View Post
So you say "a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that)", which would make the homicides stat a "pointless stat", too, right? What a terrible logical fallacy.

Not exactly the same thing though, is it? For a suicide you have all the time in the world to think of a suitable way to kill yourself. Homicide and accidental death are a lot more difficult and involved if you have to stick to a knife for example. Guns make it very easy (you dont even need to stand next to whoever you want to knock off) and a split second panic or wrong decision is all it takes.
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:59 PM JCviggen is offline  
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ok, so two mass shootings with extended magazines...versus every other "mass" shooting that took place while the ban was implemented. How is there any difference? extended magazines or not, there have still been "mass" shootings. And what is the relevance towards defining his possession of an extended magazine? Even if he didn't have an extended magazine, he would have been able to hold around 17 rounds without having to reload. and considering his ratio of # of people wounded/killed to the # of bullets he fired was approximately 2/3 (20 people out of 31 rounds),even if he used a standard magazine, statistically speaking, he still would have killed/wounded ~10-11 people.
So killing twice as many people in not significant?

The mass shootings aren't really where we should be basing our policy, I'm sure this stuff gets out into gang fights and such as well. It makes it a lot easier to kill multiple people, and how often does any law abiding citizen ever need to do that?
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And i dont think they have any more appeal to "crazies" than they do to any other lame person who wants to feel like a badass while at the range with his shootin buddies. Unless, you are arguing that those people are in fact the "crazies", which is an entirely different argument.
Should we care if people want to feel like a badass? Doesn't sound like much of a reason to leave a product on the market.


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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
the biggest shootout in american history happened during the AWB with fully automatic weapons, extended mags, body armor, etc...

It's a good thing those guys were robbers and not looking to murder people or that could have been more like our very own Mumbai terrorism shootings.
Certainly people can get all kinds of stuff illegally, but that doesn't really justify making those items 100% legal with no barriers to purchase.


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Originally Posted by Runding View Post
"limited application for conventional civilian use" sure is a very relative phrase. I'm not saying that I entirely disagree with you, I just think that the extended mag is a non-issue. Now, if grenades were legal to have around, that would be a different story.
They're a minor issue, compared to our seriously broken mental health system and background check for guns system, but still an issue worth considering I'd think.

Last edited by Gibonius; 01-13-2011 at 02:12 PM..
Old 01-13-2011, 02:07 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
Stats don't lie. Down here pretty much no-one has a gun, many people have never een a real one IRL even. As a result gun related deaths are 1/12th the US' number for homicides, a third for suicide (pointless stat though you dont NEED a gun for that) and 1/10th for accidents.

Modern society doesn't NEED guns for protection, you wouldn't miss them if they weren't there.

But of course at this point it is pretty much impossible to transform your whole civilisation into something different than what it is now. It's not practically or politically possible. Just one of those "if you could go back to the beginning" kind of things.

Your last paragraph there applies completely to the gun issue. We already have millions and millions of guns in the US, and they're not going to just vanish because of changes in the law. If we could go back to the beginning and just erase all of them, a lot of people would prefer that. But it's impossible, we just can't do it. The guns would be around for decades, but it would all be underground.

There's also the Second Amendment issue. As much as a lot of people would like to get rid of it, it's built into the fabric of our whole society.

Hunting is a big part of the culture in many parts of the US too. Canada's got a ton of hunting rifles and they rarely get used for crimes.
Old 01-13-2011, 02:11 PM Gibonius is offline  
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he kiled how many? 6? thats a standard revolver load. extended magazines are not to blame. if you want to point the finger, point it at a lack of societal infrastructure for mental health care.

too many people are blaming the tree branch for falling on their homes when they should be looking at the rot on the trunk.

You can't be that stupid to assume that every shot he took he hit. I agree with you overall, but your initial argument should get you banned for being so fucking stupid.

I'm usually a lefty on social issues but mutually assured destruction would deter even some of the crazies out there. However guns/knives should never be allowed in bars, shit didn't fly in the wild west, it shouldn't fly now.
Old 01-13-2011, 02:23 PM crumbaker is offline  
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Originally Posted by joemama View Post
It scares me to sorta agree with a Finfag, but..

Yeah, it's a slippery slope when we start talking about beefing up what goes on background checks and taking away rights.What if nonsensical ramblings on a stupid message board were enough to declare a person mentally unstable? If that were the case then none of us here would ever be able to board a plane, get a passport, buy a gun, etc..

I think you missed the point, though. The point was, that if hearing voices and making destruction plans for the lizards among us automatically disqualify you from having certain rights, you're going to be less and less likely to see people actively seeking help for their problems. Since, yes you guessed it, they'll end up having less.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:00 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Originally Posted by Runding View Post
What kind of POS land are you from?

"someone got shot they b takin away our guns durrr hurrrr"
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:02 PM Straw Man is offline  
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Originally Posted by JCviggen View Post
They are figures per 100K inhabitants. So irrelevant. And if you add some W-european countries together you have the same total population as the US with the same statistical difference in gun deaths. Google is your friend.

Ahh, good. per 100k figures are good. sometimes people try to use raw numbers from a nation 1/10th our size for arguments sake.
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:24 PM pyramid is offline  
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"someone got shot they b takin away our guns durrr hurrrr"

I hope one day you come try to rob me.











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Old 01-13-2011, 03:28 PM Runding is offline  
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This statement is only true if you allow people to own guns. America is probably too far down the hole to turn around now, but we have countries like Japan that are much safer because people just don't have guns.

I think we need to move toward having less guns around. We obviously can't take away everybody's guns, but the idea that everybody should arm themselves is just stupid. Being required to carry a weapon is not my idea of feeling safe in a modern society.

Sarin says otherwise
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Old 01-13-2011, 03:34 PM wwilliam54 is offline  
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tanner9072
 
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Originally Posted by Gibonius View Post
So killing twice as many people in not significant?

The mass shootings aren't really where we should be basing our policy, I'm sure this stuff gets out into gang fights and such as well. It makes it a lot easier to kill multiple people, and how often does any law abiding citizen ever need to do that?

i'm arguing that killing ANY number of people is significant, extended mag or not. and having an extended magazine doesn't necessarily make it easier to kill people, being able to accurately fire a weapon makes it easier to kill people. so let's make shooting ranges illegal since they allow for someone to practice their shooting ability.

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Should we care if people want to feel like a badass? Doesn't sound like much of a reason to leave a product on the market.
leaving a product on the market allows it to be more readily regulated, as opposed to leaving it on the black market, where it can be bought by anyone with the connection and the money.

Quote:
Certainly people can get all kinds of stuff illegally, but that doesn't really justify making those items 100% legal with no barriers to purchase.
who is arguing to make these things 100% legal with no barriers to purchase?
Old 01-13-2011, 06:30 PM tanner9072 is offline  
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Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
I think you missed the point, though. The point was, that if hearing voices and making destruction plans for the lizards among us automatically disqualify you from having certain rights, you're going to be less and less likely to see people actively seeking help for their problems. Since, yes you guessed it, they'll end up having less.
I guess I'm not understanding your logic...we're not talking about angsty, depressed hipsters here, but rather real loonies who are a danger to themselves and others. People who are truly batshit aren't really aware of that fact and are unlikely to seek treatment for being "normal". The problem is....who decides what is considered insane, and at what point do you protect them by taking away certain "rights" or priveleges?
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Old 01-13-2011, 07:26 PM joemama is offline  
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