General [M]ayhem

Go Back   General [M]ayhem > Real Time Sub-Forums > The Pit
Register Members List Mark Forums Read [M]erchandise Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Redrum
Crate&Barrel Roll
 
Redrum's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
1. pays for (almost) free university ... no student loan debt.
state university are reasonably cheap in the united states, and the education is fairly decent. for those who are truly impoverished, scholarships are relatively easy to find (except if you're white, and even that's changing for the better) from what i understand about the situation in germany a select few go to elite level schools, and the majoirty of the rest go to "technical schools" that aren't quite up to par.
Quote:
2. pays for 4-6 weeks vacation per year (mandatory by law)
most people who make it far up the ladder enough have way more than 2 weeks vacation/10 sick days
Quote:
3. pays for excellent bus/train/plane/autobahn infrastructure.
europe is much smaller and densely populated than america, which exept for the coasts is mostly empty. a massive public transport system simply doesn't make sense. but if you really want to take a look at what america has to offer in this deparment when it's actually needed, take a look at public transport provided by new york and the surrounding tri state area.
Quote:
9. permanent job system (think "tenure for professors" all the way down to people mopping the floor.)
i can see why this could be good, but i also could see how it could be disastrous

Quote:
.
10. maintenance of a relatively strong cultural environment (those roman ruins ain't so cheap to maintain).
well i'm sorry amerikkka has no culture since we're on this subject you also have to remember mayn european governments continue to support royal families.

some of those things are great, but you also have to take in the larger amount of taxes you have to pay.

100% tax on the retail price of a car in the netherlands?

LOL NOPE

the fact that many european states are small, relatively unpopulated, and ethnically/culturally homogeneous goes a long way to making this stuff work as well.
__________________
lol
Old 07-11-2011, 04:09 PM Redrum is offline  
Reply With Quote
#181  

Advertisement [Remove Advertisement]

TheMorlock
Contrary to my previous title I never fucked Inf's mother
 
TheMorlock's Avatar
 
eruope has ancient falling down buildings

We have Tribal land Casino's

We win
__________________
There is nothing to worry about. Legions of wise people with nothing but all of best interests at heart are ensuring our future of love and infinite bliss. Go watch TV :Bflaps
http://www.genmay.com/showthread.php?t=572323
Old 07-11-2011, 04:12 PM TheMorlock is offline  
Reply With Quote
#182  

möbiustrip
 
möbiustrip's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Serious question: how does the European social democratic model survive the absence of American imperialism?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
Serious answer: Shortly put, it survives because of american (and european) imperialism.
Okay then. (I had in mind military security, if that wasn't clear.)

You were criticizing Redrum thusly: unbridled imperialism has produced better results for him, and the rest does not matter.

Keeping in mind you aren't the first overt* socialist I've had to walk through this line of reasoning, wouldja mind dealing with that great, fat, putrid hypocrisy?

(*To the extent you or acidfast might say most Americans subscribe to a sort of toned-down tacit socialism, and it isn't working too hot, I would agree -- his implication the system can't be improved, shy of reprogramming everybody, goes straight to the root problem with it. But Europe is going broke first, on account of its more robust and evolved government bosoms.)

Quote:
I guess that's a different thread though? Besides, I don't see why me saying americans do some things really really flat out wrong, mean that I am a champion defender of european living. I've always thought it's kind of funny that whatever I happen to say about america that isn't pleasing to some americans here, most people here post how I'm a fag european
I forgive you for being a fag European, to the extent you can help yourself to refrain from bagging on "brainwashed proles," millionaires, and people with enough idea how many human beings communism starved and murdered to call it unequivocally evil.

It's quite ridiculous I have to say that to a guy whose country allied with Hitler to protect itself from Stalin.

Quote:
I'm not an economist, but if I think of the almost 20 years with the euro, it's brought nothing but essentially good things (the finnish mark was devaluated and a huge depression hit here with the soviet collapse so I'm not sure can I be objective about this anyway).
If a substantial portion of the good things were financed by debt, it's not unreasonable to expect there's another depression in the pipe. America's pretending to avoid one.

Quote:
I don't know, it seems to be a strong stable currency compared to before so I don't see why I should be overtly pessimistic about it despite the greek/portuguese/irish things going on.
Spain and Italy are also fucked.

Quote:
Regarding the USSR poll, it was done in 2009 though? Hardly a collapsed economy anymore.
Your context, monsieur: "Twenty years on, this new global poll suggests confidence in free markets has taken heavy blows from the past 12 months of financial and economic crisis."

No time like a global banking meltdown for the news to run a stupid-ass puff poll about how broken the "free market" system is, and somebody needs to come fix it back to however it was working the year before, when we all felt rich.

Which is to say: spend additional trillions of tax dollars, on top of the $10 trillion that's already spent -- and that's just counting debt -- so Shitbird can waltz around and jack me off about how impeccably "laissez-faire" the government is supposed to be with the incomprehensibly huge piles of everyone's money it deigns to bailout, stimulate, fund, regulate, tax, tariff, and goddamned monopolize.
__________________
I personally believe that there has to be a law that limits the power of the supreme court. -- R@$T@M@N

Last edited by möbiustrip; 07-11-2011 at 05:16 PM..
Old 07-11-2011, 05:04 PM möbiustrip is offline  
Reply With Quote
#183  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
if i were half as aspergic as you i'd be set

'people with the spergers get a free apartment in these parts

then i too would be able to a keyboard marxist revolutionary like you, pray for the day my benefits get approved bro so we can be marxist brothers in arms

pif some of those aspergeric genes (almost completely unqiue to scandinavia, btw)

Yeah it makes me a marxist for recognizing you're a borderline nihilist that in his spare time, likes to revise history. Set up a correspondence with samfarber, perhaps he will give you intersting insight on the Great Jewish Lie
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 07-11-2011, 05:29 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#184  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by möbiustrip View Post
Okay then. (I had in mind military security, if that wasn't clear.)

You were criticizing Redrum thusly: unbridled imperialism has produced better results for him, and the rest does not matter.
Well, obviously that's part of it. You can't be a very good imperialist without firepower (or friends with firepower)

Quote:
Keeping in mind you aren't the first overt* socialist I've had to walk through this line of reasoning, wouldja mind dealing with that great, fat, putrid hypocrisy?

(*To the extent you or acidfast might say most Americans subscribe to a sort of toned-down tacit socialism, and it isn't working too hot, I would agree -- his implication the system can't be improved, shy of reprogramming everybody, goes straight to the root problem with it. But Europe is going broke first, on account of its more robust and evolved government bosoms.)
How is that hypocritical? Western world systems like subsidization is pretty much designed to keep the poor poor, and throwing money around the world makes for good oppression and bargains.

I can't believe I spend my time talking to people arguing about how "free market capitalism" is the greatest thing on earth when there in reality doesn't seem to be such a thing. Getting called a marxist and wanting the USSR back seems to be a counterargument for that though (I don't think I've ever even remotely suggested I've even fucking read Marx to an extent I would even consider calling myself a Marxist, or that I happen to miss the USSR), it's like a bizarro world?

Well, I could care less about adidfast, really? Not to offend either, I just don't care?

Besides, the problems in Greece are somewhat fixable as are Portugal's, I wouldn't know about the total economic details of everything but considering Greece is world renowned for it's corruption and lazy tax policy which they seem to be fixing with teargas and batons, what's the problem exactly? They're throwing 20 billion euros a year away by simply not taxing thousands upon thousands of households, VAT implementation and perhaps some desk monkeys actually doing what they're paid to do will fix many things.
Quote:
I forgive you for being a fag European, to the extent you can help yourself to refrain from bagging on "brainwashed proles," millionaires, and people with enough idea how many human beings communism starved and murdered to call it unequivocally evil.
Well, this capitalist-imperialist idea probably killed more so what the fuck are whining about? Seems like killing people isn't that bad when it's done for your benefit, really? But of course, obviously suggesting that a guy working $8,4/hr and actually gloating on it is a gigantic fucking tool means I am about to get my second Stalin tattoo. Basically I post a poll where russians say they feel they were better off in fucking 1980, and you go all jingoist apeshit?
Quote:
It's quite ridiculous I have to say that to a guy whose country allied with Hitler to protect itself from Stalin.
I think we should ask Redrum is this historically correct, but thanks for the intriguing history lesson
Quote:
If a substantial portion of the good things were financed by debt, it's not unreasonable to expect there's another depression in the pipe. America's pretending to avoid one.

Spain and Italy are also fucked.

Your context, monsieur: "Twenty years on, this new global poll suggests confidence in free markets has taken heavy blows from the past 12 months of financial and economic crisis."

No time like a global banking meltdown for the news to run a stupid-ass puff poll about how broken the "free market" system is, and somebody needs to come fix it back to however it was working the year before, when we all felt rich.
Russia had a depression in before the year 2000 aswell (can't recall the exact years). You're actually pretending economic depressions are some odd fucking anomaly, instead of pretty much a certainty? So, in essence people don't like economic depressions. I'm shocked someone wouldn't consider their absence when asked how happy they are with the way things ...well, fucking are
Quote:
Which is to say: spend additional trillions of tax dollars, on top of the $10 trillion that's already spent -- and that's just counting debt -- so Shitbird can waltz around and jack me off about how impeccably "laissez-faire" the government is supposed to be with the incomprehensibly huge piles of everyone's money it deigns to bailout, stimulate, fund, regulate, tax, tariff, and goddamned monopolize.
Of course, because personally when I think of countries and what they're supposed to ...well, do, I just usually want someone to write a big figure and be told it's a big huge figure. Perhaps someone might make a living regardless of that, but that's not important!
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 07-11-2011, 05:59 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#185  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Oh, and regarding "and somebody needs to come fix it back to however it was working the year before, when we all felt rich. ", you do understand that a huge amount of people from soviet states have been significantly poorer ever since, irregardless of you going "b-b-b-but banking crisis!" ?

It's pretty hard to fucking feel like you were all rich before the banking crisis if you never were to begin with.
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 07-11-2011, 06:02 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#186  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
btw if you really want to play the debt game 'amerikkka and EU are about neck and neck:

eu:

Public debt € 9,828.2 billion
(80% of GDP) (2010)

usa
Public debt $14 trillion (Jan 2011)[8] 93% of GDP
Actually, you started gloating about the debt of some european nations. I simply implied that american debt isn't exactly miniscule either. Now you're saying "I want to play the debt game", when I all I really did was ridicule you for making fun of european debt since yours is as huge if not greater.

What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 07-11-2011, 06:07 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#187  

Straw Man
RuHo
And my head I'd be scratchin' while my thoughts were busy hatchin; If I only had a brain......
 
Straw Man's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joemama View Post
You never answered my question, as my childhood was considered very average...did the average Soviet in the 80's have a similar life? I've never seen anyone (and probably not even the Russians longing for the good old days) claim life in the Soviet Union was as good or better than the U.S. at the same time. Did you used to live there or have family there now or something?

No, I simply pointed out that you're the last person on earth to suggest someone's subjective opinion based on experience is worth nothing, since all you did yourself was post subjective opinions based on your experience.
__________________
"dogs came to man to make friends and help us hunt and guard unlike pigs"
-lolergay
Old 07-11-2011, 06:28 PM Straw Man is offline  
Reply With Quote
#188  

joemama
Watch Toomer burn those cowboys. How bout them cowboys?
 
joemama's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RuHo View Post
No, I simply pointed out that you're the last person on earth to suggest someone's subjective opinion based on experience is worth nothing, since all you did yourself was post subjective opinions based on your experience.
I'm gonna take a wild guess here and say that the average citizen of the USSR during the 80's (or 60's-70's as well) had quite a different life than the average American (which means many millions) during the same periods. Does that mean that one was worse than the other? That part is subjective I guess....but I also know which one citizens of both countries would choose if given the choice. I'm also gonna go out on a limb and guess that those longing for the good old days of the USSR, are mostly older people who got left behind when the switch to capitalism was made and haven't adjusted since. In other words, what they're really longing for is a sense of order when the government was the only bully in town instead of several large criminal organizations who seem to run things today. Also they probably felt more "equal" back then because most people they knew were in exactly the same boat they were, (queing up for bread and cheese before it ran out) and you didn't have new millionaires driving through town in their diamond encrusted Lambos while thumbing their noses at all the suckers who didn't exploit the "new Russia".
__________________
Rapid-fire double bass of the GenMay dru[M]mers collective

Syndrome of a Downs- drums/songwriter
._--_|\
/········\
\_.--Bumfuck Egypt
.......v
Old 07-11-2011, 07:40 PM joemama is offline  
Reply With Quote
#189  

acidfast7
 
acidfast7's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
state university are reasonably cheap in the united states, and the education is fairly decent. for those who are truly impoverished, scholarships are relatively easy to find (except if you're white, and even that's changing for the better) from what i understand about the situation in germany a select few go to elite level schools, and the majoirty of the rest go to "technical schools" that aren't quite up to par.

everyone in Europe has a right to go to ETH Zürich, which would be the MIT of Europe. Admittance to Oxbridge still suffers some from the class strife in Britain, but it's still much easier than an Ivy league in the states.

Also, states schools in the US aren't really inexpensive. I wouldn't consider 10k/year or 40k/degree inexpensive, especially with the lack of job security. Also, don't suggest community college, if you're stating that the free technical universities in Germany are of poor quality (Technical University of Munich - TUM is extremely high quality).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
most people who make it far up the ladder enough have way more than 2 weeks vacation/10 sick days

There is no ladder here. Work at 7-Eleven, get 6 weeks holiday, like everyone else, by law. I really like this aspect of life over here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
europe is much smaller and densely populated than america, which exept for the coasts is mostly empty. a massive public transport system simply doesn't make sense. but if you really want to take a look at what america has to offer in this deparment when it's actually needed, take a look at public transport provided by new york and the surrounding tri state area.

This is hard to argue against and America does a phenomenal job at keeping fuel prices extremely low (perhaps at the detriment of citizens of other countries.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
i can see why this could be good, but i also could see how it could be disastrous

It does promote higher unemployment for people under 25. However, once you're in a secure position, you can still easily change companies by leveraging one perm job against another open position. The day-to-day worry of job security is minimal, compared to the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
well i'm sorry amerikkka has no culture since we're on this subject you also have to remember mayn european governments continue to support royal families.

I'd consider that cultural heritage. Especially, if they possess no real execultive power, like in Sweden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
some of those things are great, but you also have to take in the larger amount of taxes you have to pay.

Sure, of course. But, the debt you're attempting to throw in our faces, is driven by these services. Or, more the point, an elimination of services will have to occur to fix the debt problem. In America, you can't fix the debt problem by removing services, because the government doesn't provide any. The real question is ... what do Americans really get for their debt ... it's nothing listed above (mandatory vacation, mandatory parental leave, decent pension, good infrastructure, full health care, free university, perm jobs) ... so I'm not sure how an average American benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
100% tax on the retail price of a car in the netherlands?

180% in Denmark. You don't really need a car because of the public transport. In Germany, you pay 19% sales tax just like any other item. In addition, you don't pay any tolls to use the Autobahn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
the fact that many european states are small, relatively unpopulated, and ethnically/culturally homogeneous goes a long way to making this stuff work as well.

You can't argue that the EU is small and densely packed such that good infrastructure is easy to build/maintain, then argue this point. Pick one or the other, or clarify.
__________________
I always post that shitty animated .gif of a boulder tumbling down a hill.
Old 07-11-2011, 11:44 PM acidfast7 is offline  
Reply With Quote
#190  

5ive
 
5ive's Avatar
 
nevermind
__________________
Chicho is full of win.
Member #5 of the Romeoz God R.I.P Collective
Old 07-12-2011, 12:01 AM 5ive is offline  
Reply With Quote
#191  

Redrum
Crate&Barrel Roll
 
Redrum's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
There is no ladder here. Work at 7-Eleven, get 6 weeks holiday, like everyone else, by law. I really like this aspect of life over here.

i don't necessarily see why this the greatest thing in the world again. what happens once this becomes unsustainable? you get greece or spain, where the mere idea of pushing the retirement age to 65 results in widespread protests and riot police everywhere. shit may not be entirely peachy in the united states, but it's not bad enough that people are hitting the streets in violent demonstrations just yet.

economy gets shit in usa, people just carry on with less job security and smaller wages. economy gets shitty in eu next you know greek communists are ting terrorist attacks against all of your central banks because they can't work 3 hours a day for 300 euros and retire at 40.

Quote:
It does promote higher unemployment for people under 25. However, once you're in a secure position, you can still easily change companies by leveraging one perm job against another open position. The day-to-day worry of job security is minimal, compared to the US.
can't you see this eventually breeding a culture of laziness ala greece and former ee countries? ridiculous union concessions like paying some guy $70/hour to hold a screw gun in his hand all day did a lot to do the american auto industry in. people shouldn't go back to working for 2 dollars a day but there should be a happy medium. forcing businesses into paying somebody 25 euros an hour to work as a cashier in sweden is a bit ridiculous.

and let's not even get into all the ridiculous kinds of things a professor can do in the us once they attain tenure. i shudder at the idea of what a polish janitor's job consists of once he attains "tenure" for his position in germany....

Quote:
Sure, of course. But, the debt you're attempting to throw in our faces, is driven by these services. Or, more the point, an elimination of services will have to occur to fix the debt problem. In America, you can't fix the debt problem by removing services, because the government doesn't provide any. The real question is ... what do Americans really get for their debt ... it's nothing listed above (mandatory vacation, mandatory parental leave, decent pension, good infrastructure, full health care, free university, perm jobs) ... so I'm not sure how an average American benefits.
massive debt in usa pays for a very nice military, which has excellent fringe benefits for both the us and eu once shit really hits the fan.
__________________
lol

Last edited by Redrum; 07-12-2011 at 05:07 AM..
Old 07-12-2011, 05:02 AM Redrum is offline  
Reply With Quote
#192  

acidfast7
 
acidfast7's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
i don't necessarily see why this the greatest thing in the world again. what happens once this becomes unsustainable? you get greece or spain, where the mere idea of pushing the retirement age to 65 results in widespread protests and riot police everywhere. shit may not be entirely peachy in the united states, but it's not bad enough that people are hitting the streets in violent demonstrations just yet.

Because it shifts the work/life balance toward life, which is goiod for families and societal structure, in general. Also, Americans are apathetic and wouldn't hit the streets. That weak excuse of a protest in Wisconsin, is the most extreme you'll see for a long time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
can't you see this eventually breeding a culture of laziness ala greece and former ee countries? ridiculous union concessions like paying some guy $70/hour to hold a screw gun in his hand all day did a lot to do the american auto industry in. people shouldn't go back to working for 2 dollars a day but there should be a happy medium. forcing businesses into paying somebody 25 euros an hour to work as a cashier in sweden is a bit ridiculous.

Sure, I can see it. But after living in both places, I find the quality of service is much higher in Sweden/Germany than in the US. I have also found that when people earn a living wage, they tend to take the work more seriously and perform much better. I found that in the US, cost reduction resulted in getting the least expensive people possible to "complete" a job, which often resulted in inexperienced people working and not taking the job seriously (think TSA, fast food service, oil change places, most retail jobs). The quality of service at an auto mechanic is night and day different when one compares Germany to the US.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
massive debt in usa pays for a very nice military, which has excellent fringe benefits for both the us and eu once shit really hits the fan.

Yeah, but until that day, the life quality is much lower. Don't forget that the last time that the shit hit the fan, it originated in the EU, twice. This alone resulted in the social systems that exist here.
__________________
I always post that shitty animated .gif of a boulder tumbling down a hill.
Old 07-12-2011, 05:13 AM acidfast7 is offline  
Reply With Quote
#193  

möbiustrip
 
möbiustrip's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidfast
The real question is ... what do Americans really get for their debt ... it's nothing listed above (mandatory vacation, mandatory parental leave, decent pension, good infrastructure, full health care, free university, perm jobs) ... so I'm not sure how an average American benefits.
Pikers.

http://www.wheredidmytaxdollarsgo.com/

You lads ought to try letting a continental bureaucracy run all 500 million of ya. You're really missing out. They could govern the shit out of you.

Quote:
That weak excuse of a protest in Wisconsin, is the most extreme you'll see for a long time.
One can hope.
__________________
I personally believe that there has to be a law that limits the power of the supreme court. -- R@$T@M@N
Old 07-12-2011, 06:19 AM möbiustrip is offline  
Reply With Quote
#194  

Redrum
Crate&Barrel Roll
 
Redrum's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
Sure, I can see it. But after living in both places, I find the quality of service is much higher in Sweden/Germany than in the US. I have also found that when people earn a living wage, they tend to take the work more seriously and perform much better. I found that in the US, cost reduction resulted in getting the least expensive people possible to "complete" a job, which often resulted in inexperienced people working and not taking the job seriously (think TSA, fast food service, oil change places, most retail jobs). The quality of service at an auto mechanic is night and day different when one compares Germany to the US.

don't really see how "serious" a retail or fast food job needs to be taken anyway, and if you need to pay somebody to change your oil you probably deserved to get ripped off.

speaking about oil and mechanics in general when it comes to europe...i thought you didn't need that anyway because of the glorious public transportation available? 180% in tax on the sticker price should lead to a life time of free maintenance and oil changes anyway...

with all due respect the position of a tenured professor, be it in eu, us, or even cuba is a plushy and privileged one. you would have been just as well off if you remained in the united states, hell maybe you would have even had access one of those massively overpaid think tank positions the us government loves to spend so much money on.
__________________
lol
Old 07-12-2011, 06:23 AM Redrum is offline  
Reply With Quote
#195  

Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:33 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.