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cliff notes on libya:

1. colonized by italians, who inherited it from the turkic ottomans
2. backwater for decades
3. gaddafi overthrows government
4. leads with an iron fist sure, but for the next four decades redistributes oil wealth to the libyan people while leading one of the most stable african countries, while being a propent of marxism, anti zionism and secularism (ie third position ala tito and castro)
5. middle east throws out a few despots
6. people in eastern provinces who have always hated him (not because they were oppressed, be because he hails from a different tribe that they do) think it's a good idea to finally take him on
7.????
8. gaddafi wasn't hearly as corrupt as mubarak and the libyan standard of living is leaps and bounds above the egyptian one, resulting in stale mate
8. profit for saudi and french oil interests, and of course by extension us. israel benefits as well because he was one of their biggest thorns in their side.
9. libtards wholeheartedly support this, because when a democrat is in office it means that the us really wants to liberate people and cares for their suffering
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:08 PM Redrum is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
cliff notes on libya:

1. colonized by italians, who inherited it from the turkic ottomans
2. backwater for decades
3. gaddafi overthrows government
4. leads with an iron fist sure, but for the next four decades redistributes oil wealth to the libyan people while leading one of the most stable african countries, while being a propent of marxism, anti zionism and secularism (ie third position ala tito and castro)
5. middle east throws out a few despots
6. people in eastern provinces who have always hated him (not because they were oppressed, be because he hails from a different tribe that they do) think it's a good idea to finally take him on
7.????
8. gaddafi wasn't hearly as corrupt as mubarak and the libyan standard of living is leaps and bounds above the egyptian one, resulting in stale mate
8. profit for saudi and french oil interests, and of course by extension us. israel benefits as well because he was one of their biggest thorns in their side.
9. libtards wholeheartedly support this, because when a democrat is in office it means that the us really wants to liberate people and cares for their suffering
let me summarize what you just said

Old 07-07-2011, 06:12 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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let me summarize what you just said


nice, an image macro rebuttal. so 2008.

go back to talking about the most mundane of things in the chat thread and just being one of the most unremarkable people i've encountered on the internet ever....forums dedicated to the geriatric are more entertaining and spontaneous than you are
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:16 PM Redrum is offline  
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and while we're on the subject why don't we intervene in yemen or bahrain? the protestors are being shot at over there as well.


i'll tell you why.

because those countries are friendly to us and saudi interests.

this uneven "intervention" nato (read: USA) does is just thinly veiled imperialism 2.0....
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:22 PM Redrum is offline  
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and while we're on the subject why don't we intervene in yemen or bahrain? the protestors are being shot at over there as well.


i'll tell you why.

because those countries are friendly to us and saudi interests.
Maybe we should be intervening in either or both of those places as well, really has no bearing on whether it was just to intervene in Libya. These things only make sense examined on a case by case basis, and the US has no explicit obligation to intervene anywhere. Various reasons we're not intervening in either, starting with the obvious: we were in Libya first, and people aren't going to accept yet another conflict. The Saudi connection in Bahrain is certainly true, but again really has no bearing on Libya.

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this uneven "intervention" nato (read: USA) does is just thinly veiled imperialism 2.0....
Wait I thought this was because of the French and the British? At least be consistent in your stupid arguments / trolling.
Old 07-07-2011, 07:02 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Maybe we should be intervening in either or both of those places as well, really has no bearing on whether it was just to intervene in Libya. These things only make sense examined on a case by case basis, and the US has no explicit obligation to intervene anywhere. Various reasons we're not intervening in either, starting with the obvious: we were in Libya first, and people aren't going to accept yet another conflict. The Saudi connection in Bahrain is certainly true, but again really has no bearing on Libya.
of course it has a bearing on libya. why is it that the only state that stands up to saudi that is in the midst of civil unrest ends up being bombed by nato? standing up to saud didn't help mr. houssein very much either, and will end disastrously for iran as well.
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Wait I thought this was because of the French and the British? At least be consistent in your stupid arguments / trolling.
i'm so sorry that you find it so hard to wrap your head around the idea that some people can actually LIKE an iron firsted dictator and consider it trolling.

as hard as it may be to believe,dictators generally bring a whole lot of things other than supposed institutionalized rape and round the clock summary execution to the people they govern over....
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:15 PM Redrum is offline  
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of course it has a bearing on libya. why is it that the only state that stands up to saudi that is in the midst of civil unrest ends up being bombed by nato? standing up to saud didn't help mr. houssein very much either, and will end disastrously for iran as well.
We intervened Libya before things blew up in Syria and Bahrain, so there's that. And yes, you're quite right about the reasons why we didn't intervene in Bahrain (less so about Syria), but again, that doesn't make our actions in Libya unjustified. Universal consistency across all vaguely related situations is not a necessity.
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i'm so sorry that you find it so hard to wrap your head around the idea that some people can actually LIKE an iron firsted dictator and consider it trolling.

as hard as it may be to believe,dictators generally bring a whole lot of things other than supposed institutionalized rape and round the clock summary execution to the people they govern over....
...that has fuck all to do with Libya being "American imperialism." Do you even know what "imperialism" means, or do you just like throwing words around? You blamed the French in the other thread (which is a lot more reasonable than blaming the US), at least be consistent.
Old 07-07-2011, 07:22 PM Gibonius is offline  
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We intervened Libya before things blew up in Syria and Bahrain, so there's that. And yes, you're quite right about the reasons why we didn't intervene in Bahrain (less so about Syria), but again, that doesn't make our actions in Libya unjustified. Universal consistency across all vaguely related situations is not a necessity.

they are unjustified completely unrelated of whether or not the US is consistent in its foreign policy or not.

it's a money pit for one, and the economy is still in tatters.

the fact that the eastern rebels are most likely islamic fundamentalists and receiving assistance from al quaeda and the islamic brotherhood is another red flag as well. i'll take gaddafi's secular marxism over legit islamists anyday, especially considering the fact that should these islamists replace gaddafi will put the hurt on israel and the us in ways gaddafi could only have dreamt of....

i find it very worrisome you're not concerned about the true motives behind all of this after what iraq turned out to be...
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Old 07-07-2011, 07:30 PM Redrum is offline  
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I maybe stupid in saying/asking this but:


Can we assume that we are just as ignorant as most when it comes to whats really going on off of our shores in the US? That our government is not giving us the full story?

Even with social media being everywhere, it still seems as if our government can easily say "well this is a mad man and blah blah blah" and we as a people think "hell yeah kill em all" but in reality its just another dictatorship that just isn't working the way our government wants it to? I guess kinda like how the Zeitgeist movement says they have social economic hit-men, to take out countries so other countries can share its resouces. (not trying to derail into a zeitgeist thread but since I have seen it, its just a curiosity to me.)

So I guess what I am getting at is, how do we truly know whats going on over there to understand if what we, UN, NATO etc are doing is the right thing or the wrong thing?

I know its SOP for the US to hold every nations hand, but it just seems as if it's wasting a lot of our own resources to the point that someday in the next century we will be them, they will be like us.......

idk....just some random thoughts.....if anyone cares to weigh in on what I said I would be greatful, and if I am stupid for saying that, well whatever.....
Old 07-07-2011, 07:31 PM JPF_ is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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beyond some SOF units and cruise missiles the US is barely involved in libya. The no flat was under france, which is the majority of the operation
Old 07-07-2011, 07:33 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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It would appear Steve Jobs agrees with Redrum

http://gizmodo.com/5819177/apple-blo...onable-content

Apple blocking outgoing emails containing "objectionable phrases". Apparently objectionable is saying libya sucks.
Old 07-07-2011, 07:37 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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they are unjustified completely unrelated of whether or not the US is consistent in its foreign policy or not.
So make that argument. No reason to bring up Bahrain, Syria, etc.
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it's a money pit for one, and the economy is still in tatters.
It's really not all that big a cost, by US standards anyway. Hardly trivial, but if we deemed the mission worthwhile, the cost wouldn't have been a dealbreaker.
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the fact that the eastern rebels are most likely islamic fundamentalists and receiving assistance from al quaeda and the islamic brotherhood is another red flag as well. i'll take gaddafi's secular marxism over legit islamists anyday, especially considering the fact that should these islamists replace gaddafi will put the hurt on israel and the us in ways gaddafi could only have dreamt of....
Well there's a difference of values. I have a hard time accepting dictators of any form, but once they have to start killing their own people to maintain power, they need to GTFO.
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i find it very worrisome you're not concerned about the true motives behind all of this after what iraq turned out to be...
Motives don't change actions, and don't change the effect of actions. A positive action is still positive if taken for selfish reasons. No nation does things for purely altruistic reasons, self-interest is always a factor. That doesn't automatically make the actions wrong. I think the intervention in Libya was justified, I don't see any evidence that there's some conspiracy to fabricate evidence, and in light of those factors, I'm really not concerned if the US, France, the UK, etc think that intervening is going to benefits themselves as well. Demonstrate the harm.
Old 07-07-2011, 08:23 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I maybe stupid in saying/asking this but:
no

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Can we assume that we are just as ignorant as most when it comes to whats really going on off of our shores in the US? That our government is not giving us the full story?
it's really not that hard to fit in your head, yes.

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Even with social media being everywhere, it still seems as if our government can easily say "well this is a mad man and blah blah blah" and we as a people think "hell yeah kill em all" but in reality its just another dictatorship
blah blah blah tunisia did the same thing

Quote:
that just isn't working the way our government wants it to? I guess kinda like how the Zeitgeist
my ass might as well vote for socialism

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movement says they have social economic hit-men, to take out countries so other countries can share its resouces. (not trying to derail into a zeitgeist thread but since I have seen it, its just a curiosity to me.)
Quote:
So I guess what I am getting at is, how do we truly know whats going on over there to understand if what we, UN, NATO etc are doing is the right thing or the wrong thing?
no
Quote:
I know
quoted

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its SOP for the US to hold every nations hand, but it just seems as if it's wasting a lot of our own resources to the point that someday in the next century we will be them, they will be like us.......
foxhound can do better

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idk....just some random thoughts.....if anyone cares to weigh in on what I said I would be greatful, and if I am stupid for saying that, well whatever.....
you're not stupid just pay closer attention to the nuclear solution, mass spread of acceptance won't delay a thing.
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Old 07-07-2011, 08:49 PM w.t.cats is offline  
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:20 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Demonstrate the harm.

who does toppling gadaffi benefit, if we're going to ignore the oil interests who obviously do. the few people in the eastern provinces who may have legitimate qualms against him? the 20% of libyans who fanatically hate him? what about the other 80%, who are either indifferent or supporters of him, and just want to be left alone?

it's ridiculous that you're practically admitting oil interests are behind the invasion, or intervention, or spreading of democracy or whatever you want to call it, but still claim it's a morally justified action just because a dictator who wasn't particularly nice to his people at times is being toppled. suddenly it makes it okay. taking into account what gadafi has done for libya makes it all look that much worse to the average libyan who is on the fence about the whole thing. better to deal with a local despot that you know and that you're familiar with than being at the whims of people a thousand miles away (saudi and co.)

i think it's also better dealing with a known and stable danger that gaddafi supposedly presents to our interests instead of swapping him for an unknown danger that certainly has the potential to be a lot less friendly and by gadaffi standards that's really saying something. an islamic fundamentalist government may tow the saudi line when it comes to economics and oil, but then you're opening up a door to al quaeda and other elements which gadafi has actually kept out, and denounced. saudis may be perfectly okay with selling oil to the us and cooperating with us officially, while at the time "mistakely" donating billions of dollars to madarassas in indonesia and afghanistan that tech nothing but vitriol for united states and israel and the western way of life in general.

this constant back door imperialism under the guise of liberation and aid is exactly why the us and its allies are hated so deeply in the ME.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:38 PM Redrum is offline  
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