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wwilliam54
 
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Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
Here's a god damned idea:
Do something else
great post
very insightful

its not as if I have worked at a shitty lab tech job for little pay since I graduated or anything
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:24 PM wwilliam54 is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
they work harder, longer, and more efficiently. some of them even in sleep in the factories. good luck competing with that, especially seeing as how the average american considers any kind of a job that doesn't involve sitting behind a desk to be completely below them.




i disagree with finger pointing, scape goating, and not taking any personal responsibility in life, and making pretend your destiny is completely determined by wall street.

as i've mentioned before this recession is thanks to thousand little cuts from every direction, getting everyone to rally around the wall street boogeyman is a herpa derpa explanation of it all.

btw, where were you when the tea party was protesting the bail outs?

accusing them of being racist against obama, no doubt.

WOW!

1) Okay so because their country and situation is so fucked up, and Nike borders on slave driving and they sleep in factories.... that is the correct way to go? And is our fault also?

2) Wondering why we have the most uneven distribution of wealth, no middle class and a shitty economy is a bad thing - because it's "scape goating and finger pointing?"

I suppose you think murder trials are bad too because that's finger pointing... It isn't polite to point!

3) This recession is because of "thousands of little cuts from every direction"? :lo: No it fucking isn't. It's because of the wars and the bush tax cuts, it's simple as daylight.

4) Bailouts were backed by everyone equally and you can't say they were a mistake any more accurately than a lot of people claim they should have been bigger. PERIOD.
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:24 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by '[H
ard| examplified a majority rules system of democracy.

lol nope, in fact a huge component of the constitution is in place to prevent mob rule and direct democracy, hence the electoral college.
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:27 PM Redrum is offline  
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
>implying the two party system never worked
>implying voting doesn't matter


>implying obama has done anything at ALL to fix the major issues and isn't just bush lite
i hope you don't really believe this
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:28 PM Redrum is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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as i've mentioned before this recession is thanks to thousand little cuts from every direction, getting everyone to rally around the wall street boogeyman is a herpa derpa explanation of it all.
There are lots of little factors, but that one big cut is damn important. The financial sector exploded after the recession of 2000, with a big help from deliberately poor regulation and rollbacks on old restrictions. Our whole country was basically being driven by the financial sector. Then it crashed into a brick wall, we lost a decade of (probably false from the beginning) growth, the banks got tax payer money, and nothing was changed. Our whole national priority was fucked up for a decade.

Sure, this is all coming on top of a bunch of factors going back decades, but it needlessly forced the issue and made it a lot worse.
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btw, where were you when the tea party was protesting the bail outs?
Was not opposed to the bailouts in principle, rather the fact that Wall Street got gobs of money without serious change in how they're treated by government (and while "normal people" got almost no attention at all, and still haven't). Those companies, at the time of the crisis, needed to be bailed out or things would have been beyond awful. But then we didn't change the rules on them. None of the "too big to fail" banks were split up, rather they were encouraged to get larger. Investment and commercial banks weren't split up, so they can still use "our" money to do risky and leveraged investments. There's no tax or serious controls on derivatives trading. The credit agencies were left alone. Tremendous moral hazard is being developed. Unlikely but devastating risks can basically be ignored by these big companies, because they know the government has to save them. It was assumed before the bailout, we confirmed it, and then didn't do any to alter it from happening again.
Old 10-06-2011, 04:29 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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3) This recession is because of "thousands of little cuts from every direction"? :lo: No it fucking isn't. It's because of the wars and the bush tax cuts, it's simple as daylight.

That's the cause of the deficits (plus the fiasco in medical costs), not the recession.

Quote:
4) Bailouts were backed by everyone equally and you can't say they were a mistake any more accurately than a lot of people claim they should have been bigger. PERIOD.
You talking stimulus or bailouts? I don't see why anyone would think the bailouts should have been bigger, other than bailing out Lehman Brothers on top of the others. All those companies survived, obviously they didn't need any more of our money.

Stimulus is a different question entirely, especially when you consider that a lot of it was actually tax cuts.
Old 10-06-2011, 04:31 PM Gibonius is offline  
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WOW!

1) Okay so because their country and situation is so fucked up, and Nike borders on slave driving and they sleep in factories.... that is the correct way to go? And is our fault also?

not saying it's a good thing, but these are the facts. one way to combat this is to combat globalization. which neither party wants to do.
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2) Wondering why we have the most uneven distribution of wealth, no middle class and a shitty economy is a bad thing - because it's "scape goating and finger pointing?"
calling wall street out on their is fine and dandy. making pretend they put a gun to your head to take out a sub prime mortgage or a student loan to go and study linguistics is not.
Quote:
3) This recession is because of "thousands of little cuts from every direction"? :lo: No it fucking isn't. It's because of the wars and the bush tax cuts, it's simple as daylight.
lol yes, let's just completely forgot about the dot com bubble burst, the bloated public sector where thousands of people don't do much at all and get to retire with a full salary at the age of 40, the explosion of illegal immigrants, the fed MAGICKING trillions of new dollars into existence and the sense of entitlement everyone has.
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4) Bailouts were backed by everyone equally and you can't say they were a mistake any more accurately than a lot of people claim they should have been bigger. PERIOD.
so you're actually defending the bailouts on one hand, while saying we should protest wall street because they took advantage of them and got fat off of them?

LOLWUT
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:32 PM Redrum is offline  
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Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
not saying it's a good thing, but these are the facts. one way to combat this is to combat globalization. which neither party wants to do.

calling wall street out on their is fine and dandy. making pretend they put a gun to your head to take out a sub prime mortgage or a student loan to go and study linguistics is not.

lol yes, let's just completely forgot about the dot com bubble burst, the bloated public sector where thousands of people don't do much at all and get to retire at the age of 40, the explosion of illegal immigrants, and the sense of entitlement everyone has.


so you're actually defending the bailouts on one hand, while saying we should protest wall street because they took advantage of them and got fat off of them?

LOLWUT

I feel one party wants to right more wrongs than the other. There's a few coorporatist dems that need to be fingered and removed. However we have enough to work with to get the ball rolling, without resorting to some radical third party fucker who wants to change everything all at once (which we know is not going to happen)

The explosion of illegal immigrants really doesn't compare to BILLIONS we spend every month on the war. The dot.com thing is long over. There are real and immediate changes we can do that will help.

These people aren't protesting Wall St because they took the bailouts, they are protesting the coorporatism in the USA as a whole. Which is a huge concern - coorporations aren't a majority nor do they do anything particularly useful for the nation - asian dishes and shoes are not a godsend exactly. So why does the lobby process have so much influence, and why do most/biggest lobbies represent pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, and so forth instead of american citizens?
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Old 10-06-2011, 04:45 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
I feel one party wants to right more wrongs than the other. There's a few coorporatist dems that need to be fingered and removed. However we have enough to work with to get the ball rolling, without resorting to some radical third party fucker who wants to change everything all at once (which we know is not going to happen)

The explosion of illegal immigrants really doesn't compare to BILLIONS we spend every month on the war. The dot.com thing is long over. There are real and immediate changes we can do that will help.

These people aren't protesting Wall St because they took the bailouts, they are protesting the coorporatism in the USA as a whole. Which is a huge concern - coorporations aren't a majority nor do they do anything particularly useful for the nation - asian dishes and shoes are not a godsend exactly. So why does the lobby process have so much influence, and why do most/biggest lobbies represent pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, and so forth instead of american citizens?
again i'm not against protesting corporatism at all, i'm just a little hesitant to participate in their scape goating and their whole pro statist ideology (though of course the protests themselves are splintered, not everyone there is a statist, have a look at the video i posted of that guy on page 1)

just an fyi, supporting obama again in 2012 won't do anything to combat this, your reluctance to even entertain the idea of a third party is a little off putting especially given how much shit needs to be fixed.

if a similar protest like this happened in europe (or any other part of the world for that matter) one of the first things the protestors would do is organize into a party to have a unified and coherent front and a real shot at changing things.

and the illegal migrants hurt the poorest of the poor in america the most because they devalue the labor and flood the very jobs that used to be there just in case you were caught on hard times in life you could always pick crops or work construction for a decent wage, but now you can't do that any more because mexicans are willing to do it for $8/hour, while indirectly draining the already scant social services this country offers.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:11 PM Redrum is offline  
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Jehannum
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
I like how you blame Wall Street instead of yourself for electing "leaders" who encourages extensive and unsustainable leveraging.

Banks are not in the business of losing money.

I don't remember electing Hank Paulson, Tim Geithner, Alan Greenspan, or Ben Bernanke.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:33 PM Jehannum is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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Which is a huge concern - coorporations aren't a majority nor do they do anything particularly useful for the nation - asian dishes and shoes are not a godsend exactly. So why does the lobby process have so much influence, and why do most/biggest lobbies represent pharmaceuticals, insurance companies, and so forth instead of american citizens?

Corporations provide a huge number of jobs and most of the goods and services that we all need and want. Of course they're useful. We'd have no economy without them, talk about "small businesses" aside. Their influence is way out of wack, but they're an absolutely essential part of the functioning of any modern nation.
Old 10-06-2011, 05:36 PM Gibonius is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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lol yes, let's just completely forgot about the dot com bubble burst,
Why would we still be talking about that? It was ten years ago and we'd easily made up the ground from it.
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the bloated public sector where thousands of people don't do much at all and get to retire with a full salary at the age of 40,
This thing, I do not believe it happens. I know a ton of public employees, and ain't none of them retiring at 40 with salary.
Quote:
so you're actually defending the bailouts on one hand, while saying we should protest wall street because they took advantage of them and got fat off of them?

LOLWUT
That's really not a contradiction. The bailouts were necessary but regrettable and deeply flawed in application.
Old 10-06-2011, 05:36 PM Gibonius is offline  
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I am going to go join the protest with a sign that says "I am angry"

I think it will give some clarity to the protest.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:37 PM zumpiez5 is offline  
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Xcric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
again i'm not against protesting corporatism at all, i'm just a little hesitant to participate in their scape goating and their whole pro statist ideology (though of course the protests themselves are splintered, not everyone there is a statist, have a look at the video i posted of that guy on page 1)

just an fyi, supporting obama again in 2012 won't do anything to combat this, your reluctance to even entertain the idea of a third party is a little off putting especially given how much shit needs to be fixed.

if a similar protest like this happened in europe (or any other part of the world for that matter) one of the first things the protestors would do is organize into a party to have a unified and coherent front and a real shot at changing things.

and the illegal migrants hurt the poorest of the poor in america the most because they devalue the labor and flood the very jobs that used to be there just in case you were caught on hard times in life you could always pick crops or work construction for a decent wage, but now you can't do that any more because mexicans are willing to do it for $8/hour, while indirectly draining the already scant social services this country offers.

$8 an hour? they'll do it for a fuckton less than that. i've got a friend that defends those illegals so hard, but he doesn't get that they're not taking the jobs americans won't do, they're taking them for less money than anyone should and making them completely unavailable. you can't say an american wouldn't do it, if they can't afford to do it for such the pittance that a mexican would, but the illegals can afford it because they don't pay taxes and live 8 to a 1 bedroom apartment.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:37 PM Xcric is offline  
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Gibonius
 
And yet everyone loves those $2/lbs tomatoes...

We have a whole shadow economy based on subverting labor laws. Business loves it and lobbies hard to keep the channels open for illegals; why do you think we haven't seen any substantive changes in immigration law in decades? Some of it is really necessary, a lot of our agriculture just can't function paying minimum wage. People are not going to spend $15/lbs on tomatoes. We could have a lot better ways of dealing with this problem though, other countries (Germany, Switzerland) do guest worker programs that have different labor laws.
Old 10-06-2011, 05:40 PM Gibonius is offline  
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