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wwilliam54
 
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Originally Posted by Coqui View Post
Where in the article did it say it was hollowed out? It doesn't specify at all how they made it not live.

And fine, how about a handgun with no ammo in it? It's just as much of an operation weapon as a hollow grenade (in that you can only use it as a blunt projectile object)

I saw it in person, the father is an old friend of mine.
You could compare its realism to a orange tip airsoft gun if you wan
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:11 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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wwilliam54
 
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It doesn't matter if it's a paperweight or not. It looks just like a weapon. Especially with recent (and not so recent) violence in schools, policies of no tolerance are easier to enforce. The bomb squad seems like an incredible over reaction, in hindsight. But the school had no knowledge of where it came from, if the kid was just lying, nor are teachers fully aware of the exact working specs of a live grenade.

And before anyone comes in about "no harm no foul" or "it was a useless paperweight"--that doesn't matter. Especially since weapons--a fake gun (that looks real) or a hollowed out grenade--has the potential to incite anxiety and fear. You don't bring shit like that into schools because it freaks people out, with damn good reason.

What bothers me is that this is a school that allowed student to have rifles in their trucks until the late 90's. IIRC there have been maybe 3 murders since 2000.
Hell, when I worked at the school 10 years ago If I needed a knife to cut cat5, i could ask 10 student to borrow one and be handed 10 knives.
Its not a crime ridden populous city. Its a rural town of a few hundred people.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:15 AM wwilliam54 is offline  
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topcat989
 
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That doesn't matter. You bringing in all sorts of weapons when you were younger, that shit isn't allowed today. With good reason.

You don't get away with taking a weapon on a plane if you tell the officer "I don't intend to use this as a weapon". What a fucking horrible argument!

I think part of his post was not so much as to justify bringing weapons to school as to illustrate how times have changed. Hell my Dad and a few other kids had shooting class as an elective in elementary school. They'd bring their .22 rifles not just to school, but to each class when they tore out the long lockers for remodeling. Teacher's response? "Lean 'em up in corner over there boys."

Guess how many school shootings there were?
Old 10-10-2011, 11:24 AM topcat989 is offline  
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#33  

topcat989
 
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Originally Posted by [H]ard|On View Post
I'd say they are over reacting based on the fact that this story is making state/national headlines

retard overreactions deserve to be publicized. I bet if it was some right wing christian faggotry happening you'd be screaming there wasn't near enough coverage by the media.
Old 10-10-2011, 11:28 AM topcat989 is offline  
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#34  

Vigilante
 
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remember the school expelling the kid for bringing in a miniature LEGOŽ gun?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:31 AM Vigilante is offline  
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Originally Posted by wwilliam54 View Post
I saw it in person, the father is an old friend of mine.
You could compare its realism to a orange tip airsoft gun if you wan

No.

My last one would be more realistic. It's obvious that an airsoft gun is fake because of the orange tip. It's not obvious just looking instantly that the grenade was hollowed out. Just like it's not obvious seeing a real hand gun has no bullets.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:48 AM Coqui is offline  
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Vendetta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat989 View Post
I think part of his post was not so much as to justify bringing weapons to school as to illustrate how times have changed. Hell my Dad and a few other kids had shooting class as an elective in elementary school. They'd bring their .22 rifles not just to school, but to each class when they tore out the long lockers for remodeling. Teacher's response? "Lean 'em up in corner over there boys."

Guess how many school shootings there were?

I understand that, and times have changed. Though just because you yourself had no experience of school shootings back when "times were different", does not mean that they were not there. There were a number of American school shootings throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Personally, I feel that people criticizing no tolerance policies using the argument of "back when I was in school weapons were allowed and there were no issues" is a myopic, and faulty, logical process.

I'm not saying it doesn't go overboard--yes the hoopla over a lego gun is pretty silly. But the other post about comparing the hollowed out grenade to an orange-tipped airsoft gun....I play airsoft. I have the orange tipped rifles. From the perspective of teachers/principals/other students, if you don't see the orange tip--you have to assume it's a gun.

And even if you DO see the orange tip--you have to assume it's a gun. Because you just don't know. Some kid could have painted the barrel orange. And in response to Domon's "logic", the kid SAYING "i don't intend to cause harm" means bupkiss. Logic does not hold when it relies on the assumption that everyone else trusts the words of the person making the argument, which there is no reason to do so.
Old 10-10-2011, 11:50 AM Vendetta is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
I understand that, and times have changed. Though just because you yourself had no experience of school shootings back when "times were different", does not mean that they were not there. There were a number of American school shootings throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s. So criticizing no tolerance policies because "back when I was in school weapons were allowed and there were no issues" is a myopic, and faulty, logical process.
that point kind of works against you. If there were always school shootings, and there are still school shootings, it would show thats its not correlated to being able to bring guns to school for stuff like that.

edit: in fact, looking at the list, theres exponentially more shootings in the 2000s than any prior decade. AFTER these rules were put in place.
Old 10-10-2011, 11:52 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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Vendetta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
that point kind of works against you. If there were always school shootings, and there are still school shootings, it would show thats its not correlated to being able to bring guns to school for stuff like that.

edit: in fact, looking at the list, theres exponentially more shootings in the 2000s than any prior decade. AFTER these rules were put in place.

No, it doesnt, because you're using faulty logic. You are implying the increase is caused by the ban. We are unaware of any number of confounding variables such as the increased prevalence of concealed weapons, an increasingly violent society, gang warfare, etc.

The actual argument that works against you is saying "because there has always been violence, we should continue to encourage violence by allowing weapons in school". Why?
Old 10-10-2011, 11:55 AM Vendetta is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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nah, its not because of the ban. It just might show that the ban didnt help.

The real reason is probably copycatting.
Old 10-10-2011, 11:57 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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nah, its not because of the ban. It just might show that the ban didnt help.

The real reason is probably copycatting.

Well again, the reasoning is a bit off--in my opinion. If you only classify the ban "helping" by completely eliminating or lowering school shootings, you likely fight a losing battle. One can only expect incidence rates to increase as the number of students in schools continues to rise, together with the availability of weapons. If however you classify a helping policy as trying to lower the risk--which is admittedly harder to prove--then it has potential.

For instance, one might ask "Did the ban remove shootings in school". No, it didn't. But one could ask "how many potential shootings did the ban avoid". Just by being there. Hard to quantify, though
Old 10-10-2011, 11:59 AM Vendetta is offline  
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#41  

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Also--I wonder what the reaction would have been from some of you if, in an alternate scenario, the teacher saw the grenade. Thought it was a dud/paperweighted (I've seen grenades that are not "hollowed", or at least don't feel or appear to be, that are inactive), and said it was good to go.

And then the thing went off, killing let's say, 4-5 kids. The kid didn't think it was real, total accident.

What's worse? Calling the bomb squad over a weapon that looked suspicious but was ultimately harmless, or ignoring it and resulting in a few deaths.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:02 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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Well again, the reasoning is a bit off--in my opinion. If you only classify the ban "helping" by completely eliminating or lowering school shootings, you likely fight a losing battle. One can only expect incidence rates to increase as the number of students in schools continues to rise, together with the availability of weapons. If however you classify a helping policy as trying to lower the risk--which is admittedly harder to prove--then it has potential.

For instance, one might ask "Did the ban remove shootings in school". No, it didn't. But one could ask "how many potential shootings did the ban avoid". Just by being there. Hard to quantify, though
is thats classic security justification problem. The c-level execs when theyre doing the budget say "why do we need security, we've never had any breakins" not seeing that the reason they didnt have any breakins was because security was in place. But you cant measure things that didnt happen.
Old 10-10-2011, 12:07 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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#43  

pyramid
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Originally Posted by illig View Post
the kid brought a disarmed grenade to school... if i saw a child with a weapon, i wouldn't automatically bet my life that it was harmless either

where the fuck is a third grader gonna get a live grenade? use some god damn sense. They have been selling disarmed grenades as novelty items since forever.

this is just as fucking stupid as the kid who got kicked out of school for bringing his boy scout folding utensil to school.

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Yep, this is why the rule exists.

except it wasn't a weapon, it was a novelty paper weight.

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Uh it was an actual grenade. Just not live.

Would you react the same if it was a hand gun with blanks?

A grenade without explosives in it IS NOT A FUCKING GRENADE.

one is a deadly weapon of war and the other is an inert piece of metal.

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yeah.... an object capable of violence does not equal intent of violence.

it's not even capable of violence.

Zero Tolerance is just an excuse not to think.
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Old 10-10-2011, 12:32 PM pyramid is offline  
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pyramid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
Also--I wonder what the reaction would have been from some of you if, in an alternate scenario, the teacher saw the grenade. Thought it was a dud/paperweighted (I've seen grenades that are not "hollowed", or at least don't feel or appear to be, that are inactive), and said it was good to go.

And then the thing went off, killing let's say, 4-5 kids. The kid didn't think it was real, total accident.

What's worse? Calling the bomb squad over a weapon that looked suspicious but was ultimately harmless, or ignoring it and resulting in a few deaths.

WHERE IS A THIRD GRADER GOING TO GET A LIVE GRENADE IN THE UNITED STATES?

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Old 10-10-2011, 12:34 PM pyramid is offline  
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