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Forever Domon
 
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Originally Posted by Vendetta View Post
Not when the penalty of being wrong is far outweighed by the penalty of being right. And you have a lot of balls to argue from the point of complete knowledge. It's a much different situation when you're in the school, in the moment, dealing with something you're not sure about (fake gun, real gun, fake grenade, real grenade), when you are responsible for the lives of hundreds of students. And when you don't have much time to act.
you dont have much time to act? Why

Is the kid actively pulling the pin out of the grenade and you have to either

A) call the principal and the police
B) Take the grenade away from him

There was no urgency here. You take the grenade away from the kid, put it away from other kids (grenades are not nuclear bombs), call his parents, and deal with the situation in a reasonable manner.
Old 10-10-2011, 01:58 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
and guess what the court ruling was for the kid that shot her....

You argued an 8 year old can't create intent to break the rules. Did that kid maybe intend to kill her? No. But he found a gun, brought it to school, and shot a girl he didn't like. And then threw it in the garbage and ran away.

What's more, you think you have to be 14 to intentionally break the rules Seriously, do you make this shit up as you go along or do you think about it late at night to just create shit discussion?
Old 10-10-2011, 01:58 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
you dont have much time to act? Why

Is the kid actively pulling the pin out of the grenade and you have to either

A) call the principal and the police
B) Take the grenade away from him

There was no urgency here. You take the grenade away from the kid, put it away from other kids (grenades are not nuclear bombs), call his parents, and deal with the situation in a reasonable manner.

Right, yeah. And then 300 parents of the other kids wonder why a school was not evacuated and professionals called when a suspicious possible weapon was discovered in a classroom. Christ you're shortsighted.
Old 10-10-2011, 01:59 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Vendetta
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Originally Posted by Tab_diagonal View Post
Maybe you can change everyone's minds by having a wrong opinion on a internet forum. It works, as we've seen again and again.

Remember that one time you argued for looser gun control and acceptance of open gun ownership on /b/ or /k/ or whatever, and as a result the TSA was disbanded and all guns and knives "reasonably useful and harmless" being a everyday knives and empty guns were brought on board of planes with no problem, and everyone was cool with everyone carrying guns, and there was no terrorism, and nobody robbed anyone and there were no rapes anymore?

Yeah, me neither.

It's ok, I can bring a gun on a plane. Or in a stadium. Or hell, the white house. But don't worry, I don't intend to use it.
Old 10-10-2011, 02:00 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
If it was something like a gun that was actually a lighter, I could understand the teacher being reasonably upset because a gun is something a kid could reasonably get his hands on. You can buy guns anywhere, a kid could have snagged one from his parents. No one has live grenades just sitting around their home. You cannot buy them, you cannot own them, and they don't let soldiers take them home as souvenirs. There is no way for a kid to get one.

It would have made more sense to confiscate it, call the parents, and return it at the end of the day and tell the kid not to bring it back to school again. end of problem.

I just really hope the kid doesn't get reamed over something so ridiculous.

Back in February of 2011, a kid brought a grenade to school with an active firing pin. The explosives had been removed, mind you, but the pin was active. A teacher does not know the difference.

Let's deconstruct it further--in this very thread, domon said he used to make improvised explosives and take them to school (seriously how fucked up is this kid). But anyway. How is a teacher to know the deactivated grenade isn't all what it seems to be? I'm not even blaming the kid--he could have harmlessly found it on the side of the road and it was really some douchebag who packed it full of something NOT harmless. The kid didn't know any better, and he's not some psychopath.

My point is, you just don't know. And if you allow a situation to progress, an accident can happen. That's why these policies exist, because failure to act on a real threat because some people think the policy is ridiculous can result in a child dying. While acting on a non-threat does not result in a death (well, I hope).
Old 10-10-2011, 02:05 PM Vendetta is offline  
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It's ok, I can bring a gun on a plane. Or in a stadium. Or hell, the white house. But don't worry, I don't intend to use it.

my point precisely

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Old 10-10-2011, 02:09 PM Tab_diagonal is offline  
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If it was something like a gun that was actually a lighter, I could understand the teacher being reasonably upset because a gun is something a kid could reasonably get his hands on. You can buy guns anywhere, a kid could have snagged one from his parents. No one has live grenades just sitting around their home. You cannot buy them, you cannot own them, and they don't let soldiers take them home as souvenirs. There is no way for a kid to get one.

It would have made more sense to confiscate it, call the parents, and return it at the end of the day and tell the kid not to bring it back to school again. end of problem.

I just really hope the kid doesn't get reamed over something so ridiculous.

but, but, that makes rational, logical, common sense! Can't have that!
Old 10-10-2011, 02:13 PM topcat989 is offline  
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but, but, that makes rational, logical, common sense! Can't have that!

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Back in February of 2011, a kid brought a grenade to school with an active firing pin. The explosives had been removed, mind you, but the pin was active. A teacher does not know the difference.

Let's deconstruct it further--in this very thread, domon said he used to make improvised explosives and take them to school (seriously how fucked up is this kid). But anyway. How is a teacher to know the deactivated grenade isn't all what it seems to be? I'm not even blaming the kid--he could have harmlessly found it on the side of the road and it was really some douchebag who packed it full of something NOT harmless. The kid didn't know any better, and he's not some psychopath.

My point is, you just don't know. And if you allow a situation to progress, an accident can happen. That's why these policies exist, because failure to act on a real threat because some people think the policy is ridiculous can result in a child dying. While acting on a non-threat does not result in a death (well, I hope).


And you want some teacher or principal who doesn't know if the object isn't what it appears to be, to mess with it? And if it does turn out to be something harmful (even if the kid didnt know)?

Of course you can argue for this. You don't have to be the one to do it.
Old 10-10-2011, 02:15 PM Vendetta is offline  
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:16 PM pyramid is offline  
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Also, as I hope you all realize this: I don't argue this because I think that 8 year old is secretly a monster who deserves to be expelled. I'm sure he legitimately thought it was harmless and thought it would be cool for show and tell. But I also know that not every kid is like that. Some kids are fucked up, and design explosives and play with weapons. But rather than blowing up mole hills in their backyards, some kids like to inflict harm on others (or hell, even do it accidentally). And these situations can, and do, happen.

I argue this because I can put myself in the shoes of a teacher, and seeing a student bring an item that could be a weapon. And when you are in the position responsible for the safety of others, and do not (or cannot) know the extent of the threat, you get someone who does. I, for one, would not want to tell a 60 year old English teacher to go inspect a device that looks and feels like a weapon, if I knew there was a chance that deactivated weapon might not be what it seems.
Old 10-10-2011, 02:17 PM Vendetta is offline  
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And you want some teacher or principal who doesn't know if the object isn't what it appears to be, to mess with it? And if it does turn out to be something harmful (even if the kid didnt know)?

Of course you can argue for this. You don't have to be the one to do it.

All I'm saying is why couldn't the teacher just take the grenade away, ask the kid about it, and inspect it. Even live grenades are not meant to go BOOM until the pin is pulled and lever released. Just a little common sense goes a long way. Adjusting to each situation. If the kid is known for being a little off and a firebug+explosives feind, then yes, caution is in order. If it was little suzy whose Dad own a novelty Joke shop, well......

Pulling a lifelike gun in class is reasonable cause to freak out these days, sad as it is. But seriously, Where The Fuck is a kid going to get a LIVE, FULLY ARMED grenade?

as far as school shootings, my Dad's time was mid '40's or so. So no, there were no school shootings to speak of. As far as the school shootings you say started in the '60s, can you cite examples of how many there were and of what nature? One kid bringing a gun to school and bringing it out to blast one specific kid is one thing, bringing 12 mags of ammo and trying to use every last bullet in randoms is another. I know by the 80s it got to be more common, but 60' and 70s?
Old 10-10-2011, 02:27 PM topcat989 is offline  
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there was a school shooting in the US as early as 1910 IIRC
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:31 PM Redrum is offline  
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Baloneyflaps.
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All I'm saying is why couldn't the teacher just take the grenade away, ask the kid about it, and inspect it. Even live grenades are not meant to go BOOM until the pin is pulled and lever released. Just a little common sense goes a long way.




common sense?






That is no longer allowed, unfortunately.





It is far easier to panic and call the authorities than it is to think. Common sense is extinct.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:36 PM Baloneyflaps. is offline  
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Forever Domon
 
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common sense?






That is no longer allowed, unfortunately.





It is far easier to panic and call the authorities than it is to think. Common sense is extinct.
im pretty sure every generation says this though.


grumble grumble damn kids get off my lawn no respect
Old 10-10-2011, 02:39 PM Forever Domon is offline  
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Actually there were some school shootings in the 1940s. In NYC alone, there was a shooting in 1946 at PS 147; in 1946 at St Benedicts Parochial School; in 1949 at Stuyvescent HS. In 1950 at a HS dance. In fact, in 1953 a student was shot accidentally in school when looking at a handmade pistol brought in by another student.

Why should bringing one gun to blast away one student be different in policy response to someone like the VT massacre? I'm not following your argument here, but I may be misunderstanding it.

You just don't know with anyone these days. Sure, Suzy from down the block is probably a good kid. And Johnny never wants to hurt anyone, but might bring in a gun or a fake grenade he found on the side of the road to show his friends. He didn't know the grenade was actually filled with something else and left there.

Are these extreme situations? Of course they are. But you're asking a teacher, who wants to teach...fuck I don't know, Elementary School Art, to not have a care in the world with inspecting a grenade. That teacher doesnt know it's truly deactivated--and though inspecting it would likely reveal the truth, it could also be something the student found walking to school, and be more dangerous than it seems (not a real grenade, but perhaps stuffed with some chemical, or explosive).

Common sense would dictate that yes, it's just a fake grenade some careless kid brought in for show and tell. But the teacher doesn't want to be the one to make the wrong call and blow her hand off

edit; or, more likely, the teacher doesn't want to be the one to inspect the grenade, find it fake, and confiscate it. Only to have Dickhead Kid #4 go home and tell mommy and daddy all about it, and then those parents raise ALL FUCKING HOLY HELL on the school.

I've seen it happen, and it sucks.

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All I'm saying is why couldn't the teacher just take the grenade away, ask the kid about it, and inspect it. Even live grenades are not meant to go BOOM until the pin is pulled and lever released. Just a little common sense goes a long way. Adjusting to each situation. If the kid is known for being a little off and a firebug+explosives feind, then yes, caution is in order. If it was little suzy whose Dad own a novelty Joke shop, well......

Pulling a lifelike gun in class is reasonable cause to freak out these days, sad as it is. But seriously, Where The Fuck is a kid going to get a LIVE, FULLY ARMED grenade?

as far as school shootings, my Dad's time was mid '40's or so. So no, there were no school shootings to speak of. As far as the school shootings you say started in the '60s, can you cite examples of how many there were and of what nature? One kid bringing a gun to school and bringing it out to blast one specific kid is one thing, bringing 12 mags of ammo and trying to use every last bullet in randoms is another. I know by the 80s it got to be more common, but 60' and 70s?
Old 10-10-2011, 02:41 PM Vendetta is offline  
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