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asa
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Originally Posted by :ninja: View Post
Because that's the stereotype. SHEESH!

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Old 10-24-2011, 06:26 PM asa is offline  
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asa
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Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
The way we intervened in Libya is the way we should have done it in Iraq; send in the drones instead of the boots on the ground and maybe 4400 of our fellow Americans would still be alive, Iraq wouldn't have been leveled for a second time, we wouldn't be another trillion in debt, and we wouldn't have had to rebuild absolutely everything from power lines to water treatment plants IN A FOREIGN FUCKING COUNTRY!

you mean the largely untested and untried drones? yeah, that'll go over well with the pentagon
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:32 PM asa is offline  
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edplayer
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>blame bush

gotcha



thats right dummy

Do you even know what happened?
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:32 PM edplayer is offline  
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asa
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probably because we didnt have drones then. UAVs were basically engineering prototypes before the invasion. The Iraq war drove their evolution 15 years in 3 years.

eh
first attacks with drones were in afghanistan shortly after we started over there, still largely new tech
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:33 PM asa is offline  
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how much is spent on the war in Iraq per day? $14million, $140million?
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:34 PM BlisterDick is offline  
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Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
>arabs have been violent sectarians for millennia with a culturally ingrained lust for blood
>blame bush

gotcha

this is the only time your wannabe greentext is correct, and as such I am forced to acknowledge it. well done subhuman
Old 10-24-2011, 10:39 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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you mean the largely untested and untried drones? yeah, that'll go over well with the pentagon

Old 10-24-2011, 10:42 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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My marine pride detector is off the charts.

Okay, that's all fine and dandy but you missed the point of my post. I'm not disputing the general timeline you laid out, I'm only speculating that the story could have been completely different. The way we intervened in Libya is the way we should have done it in Iraq; send in the drones instead of the boots on the ground and maybe 4400 of our fellow Americans would still be alive, Iraq wouldn't have been leveled for a second time, we wouldn't be another trillion in debt, and we wouldn't have had to rebuild absolutely everything from power lines to water treatment plants IN A FOREIGN FUCKING COUNTRY!

FYI Zarqawi was not the only terrorist that was fighting us for reasons beyond Iraq and Afghanistan (see: Bin Laden). But if we had waited for a Libya-type situation to develop, followed by the institution of a no-fly zone and daily bombings on saddam's military targets while simultaneously covertly supporting revolutionary elements, we could have achieved the fall of Saddam followed by a much more expeditious transfer of power to the people of Iraq, all while incurring far fewer American casualties.

Good for you, and thank you for serving. Was it worth it? Was being lied to by your government worth it? Was being sent to invade a foreign country that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 and posed zero threat to us worth it? Yeah, Saddam was a shit head and needed to be taken out, but we didn't need to spend nine years, 1 trillion bucks, and 4400 dead Americans to do it.

Last time I checked, we were never on the verge of speaking Iraqi. Last time I checked, there were no Iraqi troops amassing on the Canadian border. Even if Saddam DID have any WMDs, he didn't even have an air force with the capability of delivering those weapons on a target that was a couple hundred miles away! So again, I ask you, was it worth it?

What I was trying to get to originally before I went tangential was in response to what you said, that unless Lybia patrols its borders actively it will be infiltrated by other parties with more money and guns than the rebels.

The mention of Zarqawi is now historic fact. Foreign nationals WILL come into a war torn country to take advantage of any situation they can. Another example could be Mexico and terrorists from the middle east coming into that war torn nation.

So, while its all well and good, hey, throw some bombs at folks, let them work it out on their own...something worse could come into power. Even if its not the rebels which I'm pretty sure we don't want to be allied with anyway. It could be much worse.


Quote:
What does any of this have to do with my post on Libya? Where did I even mention Zarqawi? And if you think that proposing to send drones to fight saddam or ghaddafi rather than boots on the ground is somehow harmful or insulting to those in uniform, well, you have a real superiority complex; it's the kind of false superiority F-22 raptor pilots feel when they look at drone pilots.
Never said that before, but now that you mention it...
When drones can go into buildings and clear rooms killing only the enemy and not friendlies, you let me know. If you think that those missiles get fired at every target they see you're 100% wrong. If there's a chance there will be collateral damage, 9/10 times they wont be fired. I promise you. I shot 155mm howitzers in Fallujah and we fired more rounds than any 4 units since Vietnam but we laid in on 50x - 100x more targets than we got clearance to fire on because the target was too close to something we didn't want to destroy. We were 5 miles from Fallujah. But what CAN use judgement is real eyes on target. A good marksman could take out a mortar team set up in a school yard a few hundred yards away, but we (artillery), nor predator drones could ever get clearance to fire on that target.
And if you think Saddams forces, who regularly stole people from their own homes and tortured people just for fun, and when capturing an enemy combatant (jessica lynch) raped her ass repeatedly over and over...if you think those people or Ghadaffi wouldn't set up their rocket bases inside schools and mosques, you're pretty naive. Especially when they know they wont get fired on. They most definitely will do it. That's the reason the Iraqi army was setting machine gun nests in hospitals in the initial invasion. They knew we wouldn't take those buildings out by plane. But grunts could clear it and kill the gunners and leave the rest of the place relatively unharmed

Last edited by Caelum; 10-25-2011 at 06:08 AM..
Old 10-25-2011, 05:54 AM Caelum is offline  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
What I was trying to get to originally before I went tangential was in response to what you said, that unless Lybia patrols its borders actively it will be infiltrated by other parties with more money and guns than the rebels.

The mention of Zarqawi is now historic fact. Foreign nationals WILL come into a war torn country to take advantage of any situation they can. Another example could be Mexico and terrorists from the middle east coming into that war torn nation.

So, while its all well and good, hey, throw some bombs at folks, let them work it out on their own...something worse could come into power. Even if its not the rebels which I'm pretty sure we don't want to be allied with anyway. It could be much worse.




Never said that before, but now that you mention it...
When drones can go into buildings and clear rooms killing only the enemy and not friendlies, you let me know. If you think that those missiles get fired at every target they see you're 100% wrong. If there's a chance there will be collateral damage, 9/10 times they wont be fired. I promise you. I shot 155mm howitzers in Fallujah and we fired more rounds than any 4 units since Vietnam but we laid in on 50x - 100x more targets than we got clearance to fire on because the target was too close to something we didn't want to destroy. We were 5 miles from Fallujah. But what CAN use judgement is real eyes on target. A good marksman could take out a mortar team set up in a school yard a few hundred yards away, but we (artillery), nor predator drones could ever get clearance to fire on that target.
And if you think Saddams forces, who regularly stole people from their own homes and tortured people just for fun, and when capturing an enemy combatant (jessica lynch) raped her ass repeatedly over and over...if you think those people or Ghadaffi wouldn't set up their rocket bases inside schools and mosques, you're pretty naive. Especially when they know they wont get fired on. They most definitely will do it. That's the reason the Iraqi army was setting machine gun nests in hospitals in the initial invasion. They knew we wouldn't take those buildings out by plane. But grunts could clear it and kill the gunners and leave the rest of the place relatively unharmed
rotor mounted quadcopters are honestly getting pretty close to exactly that reality (in building operations).

You can hear them 500 yards away though, so thats not exactly viable.
Old 10-25-2011, 07:41 AM Forever Domon is offline  
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Redrum
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this is the only time your wannabe greentext is correct, and as such I am forced to acknowledge it. well done subhuman

fuck you dickless fagggot

i'm always right and you know it

you just don't have any balls and have a high level of estrogen like the you are
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:30 AM Redrum is offline  
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:35 AM Nevermore is offline  
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Originally Posted by Forever Domon View Post
probably because we didnt have drones then. UAVs were basically engineering prototypes before the invasion. The Iraq war drove their evolution 15 years in 3 years.

Couple this with the tremendous advancement in drone-assisted intel now too.

An acquaintance works on information-processing drones and tells me that during flight-tests they can tell if a driver on a crowded freeway farts in his car.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:23 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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Originally Posted by Vote McCain! View Post
and we wouldn't have had to rebuild absolutely everything from power lines to water treatment plants IN A FOREIGN FUCKING COUNTRY!

The premise is that the best long-term global defense against terrorism is to embolden people and modern society in dictatorial shitholes.

The internet and wireless communication is helping this tremendously now in ways it couldn't a decade ago.

Or do you disagree with the idea that giving people something to value in their own home and a more-modern society will encourage them to resist radical influence?
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:27 AM Zangmonkey is offline  
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#73  

Vote McCain!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caelum View Post
What I was trying to get to originally before I went tangential was in response to what you said, that unless Lybia patrols its borders actively it will be infiltrated by other parties with more money and guns than the rebels.

The mention of Zarqawi is now historic fact. Foreign nationals WILL come into a war torn country to take advantage of any situation they can. Another example could be Mexico and terrorists from the middle east coming into that war torn nation.

So, while its all well and good, hey, throw some bombs at folks, let them work it out on their own...something worse could come into power. Even if its not the rebels which I'm pretty sure we don't want to be allied with anyway. It could be much worse.

Well then it's up to the Libyans to patrol their own borders now, not us. Of course if they wanted NATO air support to help with border patrol, I don't see a problem with that, I am opposed to US boots on the ground. To me it would have been preferable to empower and assist a rebel movement in Iraq to take down Saddam while we provide air support. Clinton had a chance to do this in the 90's when he put a no-fly zone over Iraq.

Quote:
Never said that before, but now that you mention it...
When drones can go into buildings and clear rooms killing only the enemy and not friendlies, you let me know. If you think that those missiles get fired at every target they see you're 100% wrong. If there's a chance there will be collateral damage, 9/10 times they wont be fired. I promise you. I shot 155mm howitzers in Fallujah and we fired more rounds than any 4 units since Vietnam but we laid in on 50x - 100x more targets than we got clearance to fire on because the target was too close to something we didn't want to destroy. We were 5 miles from Fallujah. But what CAN use judgement is real eyes on target. A good marksman could take out a mortar team set up in a school yard a few hundred yards away, but we (artillery), nor predator drones could ever get clearance to fire on that target.
And if you think Saddams forces, who regularly stole people from their own homes and tortured people just for fun, and when capturing an enemy combatant (jessica lynch) raped her ass repeatedly over and over...if you think those people or Ghadaffi wouldn't set up their rocket bases inside schools and mosques, you're pretty naive. Especially when they know they wont get fired on. They most definitely will do it. That's the reason the Iraqi army was setting machine gun nests in hospitals in the initial invasion. They knew we wouldn't take those buildings out by plane. But grunts could clear it and kill the gunners and leave the rest of the place relatively unharmed
Of course Saddam/Gaddafi isn't going to play nice, especially with the way he treated his people. But why did it have to be OUR grunts going in on foot getting Saddam? I think it would have been preferable to have soldiers from a rebel movement go in and clear out the hospitals/schools/etc. on the ground while we provide air support, that's essentially how it went down in Libya.
Old 10-25-2011, 01:48 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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#74  

Vote McCain!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangmonkey View Post
The premise is that the best long-term global defense against terrorism is to embolden people and modern society in dictatorial shitholes.

The internet and wireless communication is helping this tremendously now in ways it couldn't a decade ago.

Or do you disagree with the idea that giving people something to value in their own home and a more-modern society will encourage them to resist radical influence?

No, I agree. Without communication over the internet there would probably still be dictators ruling Egypt and Tunisia.
Old 10-25-2011, 01:49 PM Vote McCain! is offline  
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