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[H]ard|On
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It also sounds like a great way to get herpes/hepatitis/aids, either off the table or the needles.

You know stupid sick people lay on that table all day long
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:44 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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A chiropractor f'upped my neck and I was on pain meds for about a week. Accupuncture helped me get off them. I'm not into holistic BS either. I'm sure it works for some and not for others.

So one pseudoscience "therapy" treated the fuckup of another pseudoscience "therapy."

Hot.
Old 02-27-2012, 11:01 AM Gibonius is offline  
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So one pseudoscience "therapy" treated the fuckup of another pseudoscience "therapy."

Hot.




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Old 02-27-2012, 01:59 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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So it's placebo at best. You could meditate on your own without paying some quack a few hundred clams to stick needles in your skin.

My girlfriend was actually referred to acupuncture "therapy" by her GP for anxiety. It did nothing, and when she told her anxiety coach his reaction was basically, "YOU DON'T SAY?!"
If people want to believe in stupid shit, that's fine. But when you start telling other people about how wonderful your stupid shit is, or force your stupid shit upon your animals (there are several doggy acupuncture "specialists" in my city...) then you can prompty go fuck yourself.

Well yes it is essentially placebo. But this subject of placebo is an entirely different subject in itself and is actually a subject I plan on writing an entire book on.

I think it is a huge fallacy of thought in modern medical science to say "Its just placebo, its a fluke". As though placebo is something you want to avoid, that placebo is somehow not real.

The whole notion of 'avoiding placebo' and 'placebo is useless' comes from medical research because they are researching for something to sell. They generally have been frowning upon resulting placebo effects in studies because they don't believe they can sell placebo. They want to sell pharmaceuticals, so they talk away the value of the placebo effect. This has created this common conception in the public that placebo is something you don't want, that you want the "real" thing, as though placebo isn't really "doing" anything.

But this is quite contrary to the truth, placebo really IS doing something. Placebo is quite literally one of the most potent medicines we have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Duration

To review a few things from the wikipedia page:

Quote:
One study found that for postoperative pain following the extraction of the third molar, saline injected while telling the patient it was a powerful painkiller was as potent as a 6–8 mg dose of morphine.[122]
Quote:
Parkinson's disease: Placebo relief is associated with the release of dopamine in the brain.[84]
Depression: Placebos reducing depression affect many of the same areas that are activated by antidepressants with the addition of the prefrontal cortex[85][86]
Caffeine: Placebo-caffeinated coffee causes an increase in bilateral dopamine release in the thalamus.[87]
Glucose: The expectation of an intravenous injection of glucose increases the release of dopamine in the basal ganglia of men (but not women).[88]
Methylphenidate: The expectation of intravenous injection of this drug in inexperienced drug users increased the release of dopamine in the ventral cingulate gyrus and nucleus accumbens, with this effect being largest in those with no prior experience of the drug.[89]
Quote:
Research upon conditioning in animals shows the brain can learn control over them. In conditioning, a neutral stimulus saccharin is paired in a drink with an agent that produces an unconditioned response. For example, that agent might be cyclophosphamide that causes immunosuppression. After learning this pairing, the taste of saccharin by itself through neural top-down control created immunosuppression, as a new conditioned response.[92] Such conditioning has been found to affect a diverse variety of not just basic physiological processes in the immune system but ones such as serum iron levels, oxidative DNA damage levels, and insulin secretion.
There is much more research as you probably already know, but the short of it is. Placebo can produce remarkable alterations in human body and brain chemistry, and produced very real therapeutic responses. Placebo can account for up to 8mg of the effect of IV injected morphine! 8mg of IV morphine is a fairly moderate dosage.

You say "It just placebo" but can you produce the response in the brain by pure will of mind to create an effect on par with 8mg of IV morphine?

You might be able to, and I personally believe I can. I suffer from chronic migraines and I feel the only way I've come to be able to live with constant headpain is by coming to full grips with the power of the placebo effect. In the proper mindset and with the proper focus I can alleviate much of the pain in my head by simply focusing on it.

But here is the thing. Most people can't do that. Even people who deal with Chronic pain still feel they need a medication. I'm a rarity to produce such a response in my body chemistry by will alone.

This is where things that can control and induce the placebo effect come into play, and why I personally feel this subject needs to be put in the proper light.

Not all placebo is made equally. This notion that "placebo is placebo is placebo and it all takes profit from pharmaceuticals!" is not correct. Some placebo has been shown to produce a better response than other placebo. Certain methods shown to be more effective at inducing certain placebo effects.

Here is another quote from the wikipedia page:
Quote:
Because placebos are dependent upon perception and expectation, various factors that change the perception can increase the magnitude of the placebo response. For example, studies have found that the color and size of the placebo pill makes a difference, with "hot-colored" pills working better as stimulants while "cool-colored" pills work better as depressants. Capsules rather than tablets seem to be more effective, and size can make a difference.[57] One researcher has found that big pills increase the effect[58] while another has argued that the effect is dependent upon cultural background.[59] More pills,[60] branding,[61] past experience,[62] and high price[63] increase the effect of placebo pills. Injection[64] and acupuncture[18] have larger effect than pills. Proper adherence to placebos is associated with decreased mortality.[65]
Interestingly bigger, more expensive pills produce a stronger effect in people. I believe this probably due to the conditioning of the desire for MONEY in culture. It's so ingrained if its bigger and cost more, its better, and this is reflected in the placebo effect of our culture. But note that the study says acupuncture has generally a greater placebo benefit than any other thing.

Which means acunpuncture is NOT doing "nothing" more so than any other method. But rather acupuncture is more effectively inducing an alteration in brain and body chemistry in the direction of a desired effect than any other method.

Again, if you can produce such alterations in your body chemistry and physiology by pure will ( which I feel I can, which is why I generally feel acupuncture is not much value to me ). Then acupuncture won't be of much value. But AGAIN, the thing is, most people can't do that. I spent a considerable amount of time intensely studying and practicing yoga and energized meditations, most people have no concept of how to do such things properly, and they never have in their life. Most people need someone to induce the placebo effect in them, and in that context acupuncture is doing something very real, even though it is placebo.

Now I get into some speculation here, but what I suspect is that certain techniques can more accurately induce certain placebo effects. What if an oncoming effect (via placebo) can be made to happen more intensely and quickly if certain stimulation is applied to certain areas of the nervous system? What if certain effects can be made to more pronounced and intense if paired with certain aromas? Certain sounds? Certainly if a larger more expensive red pill can be more effective than a small blue pill, then an entire environment designed to take into account aroma, sound, color, visuals, every sensory input of the human, would be even more effective than an environment that doesn't do that.

This is the question that fascinates me. If environment, sound, smell, all sensory input could be exactly controlled, then what combination of those things would allow one to induce the most intense and prevalent placebo effect? As in, what combination of sensory inputs would produce the most remarked therapeutic change in body chemistry? If such thing were figured out, how far could you push placebo? Could you it go far beyond being on par with 8mg of IV morphine? I would assume yes.

And that is where you get into the subject of acupuncture healing, spiritual healing, yogic healing, meditation healing. That is what such spiritual practices employ and attempt, absolute control of the fully manifested placebo effect. If you had mastered such a thing, you would have essentially mastered the control of your endogenous body chemistry. Such a thing is 'Placebo' but such a thing is probably one of the single most valuable things for a person to come to grips with.

Thats why I see the negative association to 'Placebo' quite stupid. If something is demonstrating the ability to induce a more intense and notable placebo effect, we should be paying attention and learning from it, it is doing something we want to get more of, not avoid.

Last edited by dio; 02-27-2012 at 11:00 PM..
Old 02-27-2012, 10:52 PM dio is offline  
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Jack's raging erection
 
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Let's sacrifice the next person to post in this thread to the sun god so we're sure the sun will rise tomorrow.
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:57 PM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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dio
 
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Let's sacrifice the next person to post in this thread to the sun god so we're sure the sun will rise tomorrow.

It is in the placebo effect that you can root magick ritual and sacrifice as well.

The amount of body chemistry change induced by the act of ritually killing something was probably so intense, that doing so at regular intervals obviously came to become common place in alot of esoteric traditions.

Think about these lines for a bit:
"The terror caused by watching someone be shot in front of you is just placebo."
"The feelings of love and satisfaction caused by sex is just placebo."

Placebo IS a hugely powerful phenomena.
Old 02-27-2012, 11:08 PM dio is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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Well yes it is essentially placebo. But this subject of placebo is an entirely different subject in itself and is actually a subject I plan on writing an entire book on.

I think it is a huge fallacy of thought in modern medical science to say "Its just placebo, its a fluke". As though placebo is something you want to avoid, that placebo is somehow not real.

The whole notion of 'avoiding placebo' and 'placebo is useless' comes from medical research because they are researching for something to sell. They generally have been frowning upon resulting placebo effects in studies because they don't believe they can sell placebo. They want to sell pharmaceuticals, so they talk away the value of the placebo effect. This has created this common conception in the public that placebo is something you don't want, that you want the "real" thing, as though placebo isn't really "doing" anything.

But this is quite contrary to the truth, placebo really IS doing something. Placebo is quite literally one of the most potent medicines we have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Duration

To review a few things from the wikipedia page:







There is much more research as you probably already know, but the short of it is. Placebo can produce remarkable alterations in human body and brain chemistry, and produced very real therapeutic responses. Placebo can account for up to 8mg of the effect of IV injected morphine! 8mg of IV morphine is a fairly moderate dosage.

You say "It just placebo" but can you produce the response in the brain by pure will of mind to create an effect on par with 8mg of IV morphine?

You might be able to, and I personally believe I can. I suffer from chronic migraines and I feel the only way I've come to be able to live with constant headpain is by coming to full grips with the power of the placebo effect. In the proper mindset and with the proper focus I can alleviate much of the pain in my head by simply focusing on it.

But here is the thing. Most people can't do that. Even people who deal with Chronic pain still feel they need a medication. I'm a rarity to produce such a response in my body chemistry by will alone.

This is where things that can control and induce the placebo effect come into play, and why I personally feel this subject needs to be put in the proper light.

Not all placebo is made equally. This notion that "placebo is placebo is placebo and it all takes profit from pharmaceuticals!" is not correct. Some placebo has been shown to produce a better response than other placebo. Certain methods shown to be more effective at inducing certain placebo effects.

Here is another quote from the wikipedia page:


Interestingly bigger, more expensive pills produce a stronger effect in people. I believe this probably due to the conditioning of the desire for MONEY in culture. It's so ingrained if its bigger and cost more, its better, and this is reflected in the placebo effect of our culture. But note that the study says acupuncture has generally a greater placebo benefit than any other thing.

Which means acunpuncture is NOT doing "nothing" more so than any other method. But rather acupuncture is more effectively inducing an alteration in brain and body chemistry in the direction of a desired effect than any other method.

Again, if you can produce such alterations in your body chemistry and physiology by pure will ( which I feel I can, which is why I generally feel acupuncture is not much value to me ). Then acupuncture won't be of much value. But AGAIN, the thing is, most people can't do that. I spent a considerable amount of time intensely studying and practicing yoga and energized meditations, most people have no concept of how to do such things properly, and they never have in their life. Most people need someone to induce the placebo effect in them, and in that context acupuncture is doing something very real, even though it is placebo.

Now I get into some speculation here, but what I suspect is that certain techniques can more accurately induce certain placebo effects. What if an oncoming effect (via placebo) can be made to happen more intensely and quickly if certain stimulation is applied to certain areas of the nervous system? What if certain effects can be made to more pronounced and intense if paired with certain aromas? Certain sounds? Certainly if a larger more expensive red pill can be more effective than a small blue pill, then an entire environment designed to take into account aroma, sound, color, visuals, every sensory input of the human, would be even more effective than an environment that doesn't do that.

This is the question that fascinates me. If environment, sound, smell, all sensory input could be exactly controlled, then what combination of those things would allow one to induce the most intense and prevalent placebo effect? As in, what combination of sensory inputs would produce the most remarked therapeutic change in body chemistry? If such thing were figured out, how far could you push placebo? Could you it go far beyond being on par with 8mg of IV morphine? I would assume yes.

And that is where you get into the subject of acupuncture healing, spiritual healing, yogic healing, meditation healing. That is what such spiritual practices employ and attempt, absolute control of the fully manifested placebo effect. If you had mastered such a thing, you would have essentially mastered the control of your endogenous body chemistry. Such a thing is 'Placebo' but such a thing is probably one of the single most valuable things for a person to come to grips with.

Thats why I see the negative association to 'Placebo' quite stupid. If something is demonstrating the ability to induce a more intense and notable placebo effect, we should be paying attention and learning from it, it is doing something we want to get more of, not avoid.

Good job I think you just wrote your book

Cliffs: telling yourself you feel better makes you feel better.


Great. Just do that then, no need for Chinese needle trickery. Plus now that we all know it's it's not a very good placebo, is it?
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:29 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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Jack's raging erection
 
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Originally Posted by dio View Post
It is in the placebo effect that you can root magick ritual and sacrifice as well.

The amount of body chemistry change induced by the act of ritually killing something was probably so intense, that doing so at regular intervals obviously came to become common place in alot of esoteric traditions.

Think about these lines for a bit:
"The terror caused by watching someone be shot in front of you is just placebo."
"The feelings of love and satisfaction caused by sex is just placebo."

Placebo IS a hugely powerful phenomena.

How would you like to be killed? The people will be wanting the sun to come up in a few hours.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:22 AM Jack's raging erection is offline  
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Gibonius
 
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It is in the placebo effect that you can root magick ritual and sacrifice as well.

The amount of body chemistry change induced by the act of ritually killing something was probably so intense, that doing so at regular intervals obviously came to become common place in alot of esoteric traditions.

Think about these lines for a bit:
"The terror caused by watching someone be shot in front of you is just placebo."
"The feelings of love and satisfaction caused by sex is just placebo."

Placebo IS a hugely powerful phenomena.

That's not placebo effect bro.
Old 02-28-2012, 10:27 AM Gibonius is offline  
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dio
 
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That's not placebo effect bro.

I'm using it as an example of how radically your body chemistry can change to produce completely different states of mind and physical states without any external input of chemicals.
Old 02-29-2012, 01:21 AM dio is offline  
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dio
 
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Good job I think you just wrote your book

Cliffs: telling yourself you feel better makes you feel better.


Great. Just do that then, no need for Chinese needle trickery. Plus now that we all know it's it's not a very good placebo, is it?

It can still be useful. Think of acupuncture more in the context of a guided meditation. The practitioner may only be helping to guide your internal body processes and thoughts to produce a therapeutic effect, but they are still guiding it, and for most people they need someone to guide because they don't know what to do by themselves.

You still really missed my point of saying, just because it is placebo doesn't mean the practitioner isn't doing anything and its . Someone who can induce extremely strong alteration to body and brain chemistry in patients, when the patients could not do so without their aid, is doing something very real that can be helpful.
Old 02-29-2012, 01:25 AM dio is offline  
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That's not placebo effect bro.

Actually in the first instance, since your expectations influence whether the experience is positive or negative to you, it is very similar to the placebo effect and likely shares many of the same mechanisms.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:30 AM TheMorlock is offline  
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[H]ard|On
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It can still be useful. Think of acupuncture more in the context of a guided meditation. The practitioner may only be helping to guide your internal body processes and thoughts to produce a therapeutic effect, but they are still guiding it, and for most people they need someone to guide because they don't know what to do by themselves.

You still really missed my point of saying, just because it is placebo doesn't mean the practitioner isn't doing anything and its . Someone who can induce extremely strong alteration to body and brain chemistry in patients, when the patients could not do so without their aid, is doing something very real that can be helpful.

Well then how about guided meditation WITHOUT the risk of herpes?

I'll take a classic sugar pill over a hundred needles
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:06 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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It also sounds like a great way to get herpes/hepatitis/aids, either off the table or the needles.

You know stupid sick people lay on that table all day long


So one pseudoscience "therapy" treated the fuckup of another pseudoscience "therapy."

Hot.

Well then how about guided meditation WITHOUT the risk of herpes?OMG




I'll take a classic sugar pill over a hundred needlesOMG


The needles are sealed, sterile and thrown away after use. Blood hasn't been drawn ever; the needles don't penetrate that far. Ibuprofen and sometimes even vicodin don't work,; this has.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:01 AM AllUranusBelong2Me! is offline  
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[H]ard|On
tell me i is retarded and i will just potato
 
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The needles are sealed, sterile and thrown away after use. Blood hasn't been drawn ever; the needles don't penetrate that far. Ibuprofen and sometimes even vicodin don't work,; this has.

try weed.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:51 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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