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Originally Posted by Redrum View Post
YOU'RE the one who should be reading....that very passage you quote is a case AGAINST the popular vote

avoid mob rule is a huge reason why the electoral college is in place.

tl;dr us never was intended to be a democracy.

The world is more educated now and we have way more information available to us about politics. It's not exactly "mob rule" and ultimately legislation is still up to our elected officials and we have the 'checks and balances'

So again the electoral college is neither here or there.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:05 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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The world is more educated now and we have way more information available to us about politics.

It's also a lot easier to pander directly to the population than ever before.
Old 12-14-2011, 09:03 PM Gibonius is offline  
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It's also a lot easier to pander directly to the population than ever before.

True but Electoral college doesn't protect us from idiots voting or bad candidates anymore than it protects state rights.


It simply exists and we're used to it.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:21 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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True but Electoral college doesn't protect us from idiots voting or bad candidates anymore than it protects state rights.


It simply exists and we're used to it.

It exists to allow states the option to leverage their voting block as a unified state rather than as a collection of American subjects.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:57 PM Zangmonkey is offline  
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It exists to allow states the option to leverage their voting block as a unified state rather than as a collection of American subjects.

I know how it works, there's simply no benefit in that. There should be no leveraging, adjusting or scaling in voting. Period. You are one person and that is that - you don't deserve a bonus multiplier just because you live where few others do.

It's a southern slave state tactic that is still around today for no reason other than tradition.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:27 PM [H]ard|On is offline  
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I know how it works, there's simply no benefit in that. There should be no leveraging, adjusting or scaling in voting. Period. You are one person and that is that - you don't deserve a bonus multiplier just because you live where few others do.
The point is that the President represents things beyond simply the population. The economic interests of states, including things like mineral exploitation, are part of it. Simply going by population ignores that.

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It's a southern slave state tactic that is still around today for no reason other than tradition.
How does slave state have anything to do with it?
Old 12-14-2011, 10:52 PM Gibonius is offline  
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does reductio ad absurdum mean anything at all to you?

Well considering in this case no actual proof of the EC giving small states more say in national matters has yet been presented...

Not everything can be expected to work on any scale, but in this case it boils down to assigning small groups of people more relative voting power merely because they're a small group. That would appear to make the "state" title more important than the country of which it is part.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:52 PM JCviggen is offline  
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Well considering in this case no actual proof of the EC giving small states more say in national matters has yet been presented...

it does

if there were no electoral college for the president and it was all via direct democracy the three majors states would more or less elect every president exclusively, people who live in the midwest and south (which in terms of population density are mostly empty when compared to the coasts) would have absolutely no sway on a federal level and no candidates would even bother campaigning there ever...
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:04 PM Redrum is offline  
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The world is more educated now and we have way more information available to us about politics. It's not exactly "mob rule" and ultimately legislation is still up to our elected officials and we have the 'checks and balances'

So again the electoral college is neither here or there.

world hasn't changed at all, information may be more accessible but the common man is no more or no less educated than he was in the 18th century.

if anything the converse argument could be made saying that people as a whole were a lot more involved in local politics in the 18th century and as rule read a whole lot more than people do today...

framers of the constitution understood the common pitfalls of athenian style direct democracy, particularly oppression of the minority by the majority, you really ought to read some books on the subject to get a better grasp of this philosophically
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:08 PM Redrum is offline  
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The point is that the President represents things beyond simply the population. The economic interests of states, including things like mineral exploitation, are part of it. Simply going by population ignores that.


How does slave state have anything to do with it?

We elect a president with federal powers that affect everyone equally in all states. Tell me again why someone's vote should count for less? Minerals?
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:42 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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world hasn't changed at all, information may be more accessible but the common man is no more or no less educated than he was in the 18th century.

if anything the converse argument could be made saying that people as a whole were a lot more involved in local politics in the 18th century and as rule read a whole lot more than people do today...

framers of the constitution understood the common pitfalls of athenian style direct democracy, particularly oppression of the minority by the majority, you really ought to read some books on the subject to get a better grasp of this philosophically

"Oppression by majority" is called majority rule and it is found throughout our government, not to mention every other democracy.

I'll take that over oppression by the minority.
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:43 AM [H]ard|On is offline  
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...

ugh
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Old 12-15-2011, 12:49 AM Redrum is offline  
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if there were no electoral college for the president and it was all via direct democracy the three majors states would more or less elect every president exclusively, people who live in the midwest and south (which in terms of population density are mostly empty when compared to the coasts) would have absolutely no sway on a federal level and no candidates would even bother campaigning there ever...

Check your math.

There's what, 300 million people in America? The 4 largest ones combined barely add up to 1/3rd of the population and no candidate or party is going to get anywhere near 100% in them. And many of the "empty" states get bare minimum/no campaining under the current system anyway, not much to lose there.

People who live in the midwest or south (btw second most populous state in the union is in the south) would get exactly the same voting power as the ones living in CA. Someone living in CA does not care who his next door neighbour votes for, he cares for his own right to vote for the leader of the country
You appear to be assuming gigantic cultural and political differences across state lines which for most of them simply isn't the case. You can connect large blocs on the map that aside from the state's name are extremely similar in all relevant aspects.

I still see no reasonable defense to give "minorities" more voting power to compensate for their numbers. But they're not even minorities they just happen to have a state name with few residents behind it.

Anyway, all this discussion about the EC is a bit of a red herring. The biggest improvement would probably be to divide the states' electoral votes proportionally. Because there are no huge ideological differences between most of the states I don't think the EC makes that much of a difference in itself to the outcome. The "winner takes all" principle is a far bigger flaw.
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Old 12-15-2011, 03:33 AM JCviggen is offline  
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world hasn't changed at all, information may be more accessible but the common man is no more or no less educated than he was in the 18th century.

if anything the converse argument could be made saying that people as a whole were a lot more involved in local politics in the 18th century and as rule read a whole lot more than people do today...

Come on, there's no way this is true. Before the advent of public education in the early 20th century, the "average man" was functionally illiterate.
Old 12-15-2011, 09:28 AM Gibonius is offline  
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Come on, there's no way this is true. Before the advent of public education in the early 20th century, the "average man" was functionally illiterate.

american puritans and the various protestant offshoots that composed the bulk of the american populace during its formative years heavily emphasized reading the bible for yourself instead of relying on a cleric to do it for you, and as such the average protestant in 18th century europe (or america) was a whole lot more literate than say his catholic or orthodox counterpart.

but then again i wouldn't exactly consider literacy a sign of general intelligence or awareness of issues anyway. there are plenty of people out there who know how to read yet couldn't tell their foot from their ass otherwise, so using literacy rates as a gauge for how knowledgeable or educated a population isn't very useful anyway. literacy rates in america are above 90%, yet how many people are capable of discussing politics, economics, and general policy on a level beyond repeating what they hear on MSNBC or fox news...not very many...

even if you discount this and continue with the claim that people were a whole lot less informed or educated in the 18th century they still as a rule were a lot more involved in local politics 200 years ago than they are now.
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